Civillian saddles in the Union Army

[IowaYank]

Re: Civillian saddles in the Union Army

http://cgi.ebay.com/ANTIQUE-Texas-HOPE-1850s-Cowboy-Saddle-RARE-Complete-/200470166555?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2eacf3fc1b

Another one for your viewing pleasure. Ken or anyone else with more knowledge on the subject, if any of these listed do not look period please shout out!! To me these all look period, so if they arn't could you explain what doesn't look period about them??

Thanks
Dan

[Mark Choate]

Re: Civillian saddles in the Union Army

My oh my, Dan that Texas saddle sure looks sweet. But not $4,000 worth of sweet. I would love to have it, and I think it could be original tree but the leather looks reworked to me. Check out the smoothness of the seat in the first shot. You could bounce a quarter off of it. Does not look to be 160 years old. Still, a nice looking piece.
BTW, Ken is up for the show (arrived yesterday and we ate a bite of lunch) so he won't be able to comment for a few days on matters.
Zack, don't know if admission is free at show if in uniform anymore, but I will look for you. We're supposed to have a table there near "Dirty Billy's Hats".

Be safe.
Mark

[IowaYank]

Re: Civillian saddles in the Union Army

Mark, I'll agree that the leather on that seat looks WAYYY too new!

[Linkstrap]

Re: Civillian saddles in the Union Army

The roll cantle would have to date that one no earlier than about 1870 I think?

Mark.., please say hi to Dirty Billy from his mate 'English Jim' will ya?

[Mark Choate]

Re: Civillian saddles in the Union Army

I will be glad to, Jim.

By the way, do you have an update on Ken Pettengale over there? I know that he has had some health issues but last he spoke to me, he was planning a trip over here for the Camp of Instruction in March. Hope he's still kickin'.

Dan, I will tell you, unless I am buying an old saddle for a reasonable price, I would not touch one of those "rarities" that the have on Ebay for thousands of dollars. Anything antique is really a risk unless someone really knows their beans, but with saddles and tack, it is really risky. I would almost have to have a photo of the very saddle being ridden during the period and maybe the riders blood stain on the saddle and if possible a DNA proof from his current closest of kin before I would buy it, ha.

Mark

[IowaYank]

Re: Civillian saddles in the Union Army

Haha, I know what you mean Mark. Those saddles are all WAY out of my price range, but they are sure fun to look at!

[Longrope]

Re: Civillian saddles in the Union Army

That "Texas" saddle looks like a late 19th century catalog saddle to me. It's certainly not from the war, and though it's in good condition, it's not worth $4000.

[Outrider]

Re: Civillian saddles in the Union Army

That "Texas" saddle looks like a late 19th century catalog saddle to me. It's certainly not from the war, and though it's in good condition, it's not worth $4000.

I agree on all counts.

[IowaYank]

Re: Civillian saddles in the Union Army

Casey and Paddy, I am an absolute novice when it comes to civilian horned saddles. I have gone through all 21 pages of Cav forum and read everything I could find about horned saddles. Some valuable information has been taken in, while at the same time I am still sitting here scratching my head. What about that saddle shouted late 19th century to you?? What are the hallmarks of a CW period horned civilian saddle? Some of the terminology has gotten me confused as well. What is the difference between a Spanish saddle and a half Spanish saddle?

Thanks

[volcav]

Re: Civillian saddles in the Union Army

I really like the Texas saddle. As far as being CW period, it is a double rigged saddle. I didn't think the double girths came out until sometime after the war. Either way it is a nice saddle.

[Linkstrap]

Re: Civillian saddles in the Union Army

The combination of the double rigging and the roll cantle say post war catalog sadddle to me too guys.

Mark.., I'm sorry to say that Ken Pettengale has sold off his kit and left the hobby.

[Mark Choate]

Re: Civillian saddles in the Union Army

Jim,

I am really sorry to hear that about Ken leaving the hobby. He was really acquiring some nice stuff (a muley and nice saddlebags from Karl Pepper) and seemed to be very excited about it. Next thing I hear, he had taken a really bad fall and his horse took off through the woods and tore up some of his new tack. Don't know if that had anything to do with it or not.

Well, Jim, when are you gonna plan to come across the pond and ride with us? We would surely love to have you at the Camp of Instruction next March. We can find you a mount and tack if you can make it across. Consider this a standing offer.

On the other subject of the Texas saddle, I agree that it looks post war, but unless I am sorely mistaken, the presence of a double rigged girth is not 100% exclusive of a war era saddle. While seldom seen, I am almost certain that Ken K. used to have a war era saddle with double rigging. Will check it a bit more though.

Finally, saw some nice saddles at the C W show in Franklin, Tn yesterday. a sweet Grimsley Driver and a nice officers covered Mac. On the flip side, it is really sad how that some unscrupulous folks will offer up saddles as pre-war or war era when they are not. Without naming any one, I found a couple of such offers. The really sad thing is that someone is apt to pay some good money for falsely advertised goods. Oh well, let the buyer beware!

Mark

[Linkstrap]

Re: Civillian saddles in the Union Army

Mark.., that's an incredibly generous offer. Very much appreciated! I am hoping to get over there again before too long, I'll be in touch mate, and thanks!

I'll be interested to hear what Ken says about the double rigging. It's my impression that it wouldn't be NUG for our era but I'm more than ready to learn more on the subject.

[Ken Knopp]

Re: Civillian saddles in the Union Army

Hey Gents,

Just returned from the Nashville Show! Great stuff to see as always. I will be posting some photo gleanings here (the relative "horsey" ones anyway) and others on the photo section of this AC forum later in the week.
Quick reply on these saddles....... The style of leather treatment suggests the first one http://cgi.ebay.com/Very-Old-Antique...item2eaf0048b0

.....with the wood horn to be a common catalog saddle dating from the 1870's (at earliest) to the early 1900's or so. Very hard to pin down for sure as they were quite commonly made by many catalog companies over a long period of time. The tree has some similarities to earlier patterns but this saddle is very “unlikely” to have been made earlier than the above noted dates.
The second ebay pattern you linked http://cgi.ebay.com/Rare-PYRAMID-mak...item20add5d64f ......is on the border line to antique (if you go by the 75 year rule) but hardly rare. It is however, a Ladies Astride Saddle. Several companies made these (including The Perking Campbell Co of New York, Cincinnati and Chicago) in the early twentieth century (1900-1920's) as they transitioned the gals from side saddles to astride saddles. The thought was to offer them more security with the padded roles (as if they needed it- the reality is that if a gal can ride a side saddle then riding astride is a cinch). Anyway, saddles like this with the graceful horns, bucking role and padded cantle were considered "feminine" appendages.
As for its ebay description, which included calling the saddle “Slave Dragger Saddle”...that is hilarious! (These people are obviously Yankee neophytes! As all of us Southern Cowboys know, you cannot drag a slave (or a cow or horse either) with a slick horn. The rope will not grip! Man! What are they thinking up there? At any rate, all of that slave business was resolved back in 1865- about April or so of that year as I recall.) Just kidding of course but.....ebay descriptions NEVER cease to amaze me!
The third one....http://cgi.ebay.com/Very-Rare-Antiqu...item20a8a147cd Is a typical "wagon Saddle". This general pattern goes back into the 18th century or so (maybe earlier in some fashion) but were very commonly made by catalog companies and independent saddlers well into the 20th century. There is nothing on it that tells me it is Confederate (excepting its ebay sales secription- BS!).
The last one http://cgi.ebay.com/ANTIQUE-Texas-HO...item2eacf3fc1b is another catalog saddle probably dating from the 1880's to 1900 or so maybe a bit later. I could (if I had the time) scan about ten dozen very, very similar catalog drawings from catalogs dating from the 1870's to 1920. This one is in very good condition however. As for double rigging.... that did not become popular (in America) until about the time of the end of the Civil War (with the explosion of the great cowboy era and the need for gathering, branding, driving, etc cattle....- although the Spanish and some in California were doing it much earlier). There is evidence of double rigging before that with American Texas type saddles but it was not widely popular until the advent of the cowboy era as I noted above.
Gotta go!!!


Ken R Knopp

https://www.confederatesaddles.com

[Mark Choate]

Re: Civillian saddles in the Union Army

Ken,

Thanks for the good followup and critique on those saddles. Especially liked the cliff notes on "dragging saddles". Just like a "stupid square-head" to say something like that, ha.

Jim,
I went back and looked through some books for the photo of the double rigging. Did not find what I remembered. There was one that had a broken quarterstrap on the off side and the photo looked like a double strap hanging down, but not what I was remembering. I will have to back off of that statement for the time being. Will keep looking, though.

Ken, do you know of any example of double rigged girths in war era or before?

thanks,
Mark