Civillian saddles in the Union Army

[Ken Knopp]

Re: Civillian saddles in the Union Army

Mark,
Q: do you know of any example of double rigged girths in war era or before?
A: Off the top of my head - no... but I have seen an example, photo, drawing somewhere....cannot remember where now. In any event, it just makes sense. When roping cattle, the double girth makes sense. Also, the Spanish were doing it and since that is where we got so much of our influences- again,...it makes sense.

Dan, As to the differences of Spanish to Half-Spanish.... let me refer you to my article "Commerical and Catalog Saddles of the 19th and Early 20th Century" on my web site under Feature Articles. It will show the evolutions of popular commercial patterns and, a nice comparison of the above saddles.


Best,

Ken R Knopp

[The Egyptian Homeguard]

Re: Civillian saddles in the Union Army

The Texas saddles leather looks way too new... a rebuild? Many fakes/ non-period saddles at the show... supprised by the number of 04's and the 28... But I did finally come up with a Child's '59 blanket! Yippie. Zack

[Longrope]

Re: Civillian saddles in the Union Army

Dan,
Catalog saddles often had the scalloped rigging tacked to the fork, a leather medallion on the horn neck, and a cheap looking embossing on the leathers edge. It's a style that is common to many different companies.

What are the hallmarks of a typical horned saddle from the war? I would say a bigger horn on a smallish neck, a low cantle, and a long heavy fork. Single rigging at about 7/8 to 3/4. Leather carving would be very simple, if done at all. Bent wood stirrups.

That is my idea of typical, based on what I've seen, and that is certainly not everything.

[Longrope]

Re: Civillian saddles in the Union Army

Ken,

I thought all of you "southern cowboys" never dally. You just tie off hard and fast.

The double-rigged saddle came into being because of that style of roping, which if I had to guess, would have been starting in the 1850's in Texas. I can't find any primary evidence on the subject however.

[IowaYank]

Re: Civillian saddles in the Union Army

Thanks all for clearing things up! Looks like I have plenty of research to do when it comes to Texas pattern saddles!!

Great article Ken!
Thanks

[Mark Choate]

Re: Civillian saddles in the Union Army

Gentlemen,

I am reviving this thread because about a month ago, I made a comment about double girths not being exclusive to post war saddles. I could not recall a specific example at the moment, but have run across one. In 1812, James Walker, on contract for Tench Coxe, Purveyor of Public Supplies, designed, created and sold the "Walker Saddle" to the specifications of "horseman or troopers saddle, lined with stout undyed twilled cotton serge, stuffed with hair, with brass head and cantle, improved stirrup irons, two girths of worsted webbing, etc." This light Dragoon saddle borrowed much from the European/British styling and was very close in many ways to the Prussian-derived M1805 British Light Cavalry Saddle.
While none survive to this day, we do have drawings that with their padding and brass show that they may have had influence on the Grimsley saddle of the 40's.

Just wanted to clear that up.

thx,
Mark

[Chris Stewart]

Re: Civillian saddles in the Union Army

A good example of a war time double rigged Texas saddle is pictured in Craig Caba's book, Historic Southern Saddles ,pages 58 - 59. John Ashworth has a saddle in his collection that looks almost identical to the above saddle.

Chris Stewart
7th Tennessee Cavalry, Co D

[Ken Knopp]

Re: Civillian saddles in the Union Army

Chris, good eye!! and memory! Here is a photo of that saddle. According to the book's rather glorified description, this saddle was a post Gettysburg battle (by J Howard Wert) pick up from along the advance of Hood's Texas Brigade. A few of the items in the Wert collection have issues but I have no reason to believe this saddle is one of those. I have never seen this saddle and thought I had viewed and photographed all of the saddlery in that collection years ago but, missed this. I think I remember some things in storage or on loan somewhere at the time. Anyway, this is an interesting saddle. Double rigged (kinda) but only single cinched. The tree is period correct, as are most of its components (except maybe the stirrup- which could be a 1904 cut down to the Modified 1928 pattern) as far as we can tell. The leather treatment and hardware looks good- at least from what can be seen here. The rivets bother me a bit but I cannot be sure without handling it. Nice!

Ken R Knopp

[Mark Choate]

Re: Civillian saddles in the Union Army

Thanks for that add-on, Chris and the details, Ken.

Ironically, I got Caba's book for Christmas (actually, I had to buy it for myself and got it from Ken's site, ha) but have not finished my current read, so I haven't read it yet. Will check when I get home.

I thought I had seen a photo or something on a Texas with double-girth that is even more pronounced than this, but can't nail it down. I may contact Karl Pepper at Glenn Pier Depot as I think he has a repro on his site. He may have more on it.

Good stuff, fellas.

Mark

[The Egyptian Homeguard]

Re: Civillian saddles in the Union Army

Mark and Ken, you guys might drop Stewart Lilie an e-mail... he claims his Texas type saddle is dated to 1859 in Pennsylvania and the web pictures sure look like it has a double rig... If you look at the arrows it sure like it's double rigged. The reproduction is single, but IF the original is single rigged too, then that's as far forward as I've ever seen a center fire rig... My thoughts... Z

[Ken Knopp]

Re: Civillian saddles in the Union Army

I found some interesting information regarding "Hope" saddles... (as they say...) "on another forum" and thought it appropriate to post here. Continuity is always important so I placed it on the end of this similar discussion.
For the unfamiliar....please allow me to make note to remind everyone of the difference between a "Hope" and a "Texas" saddle. In (very) general....pre war "Hope" saddles were called such by Texans due to their familiarity/popularity of the makers- the Hope family. Many others folks ...outside of Texas- generally called horned saddles "Texas" saddles. Having said that, I do believe there are probably some attributes that make the "Hope" distincitve- in and of itself.
Anyway...the issue of Hope saddles to pre war cavarly as noted below, complete with cruppers and breast straps is (certainly military but...) interesting- huh?

Ken R Knopp

Report of the Secretary of War, War Department, Washington, December 5, 1857.
GPO, Washington, pp: 538-39

Ordnance, ordnance stores, and supplies.

There has been expended from this appropriation, during the fiscal year, the sum of $228,248 79, and the principal articles procured by purchase and by fabrication at the arsenals are as follow, viz:

1 twelve-pounder bronze gun.
1 stone mortar.
23 field carriages, caissons and travelling forges
1 coehorn mortar bed.
200 Sharp's carbines.
310 repeating pistols, different patents.
100 six-pounder cannon balls.
62 eight-inch columbiad and mortar shells
304 thirty-two-pounder shells.
338 twenty-four-pounder spherical case shot.
800 infantry cartridge boxes.
799 box belts.
1,500 "waist belts.
1,367 bayonet scabbards, with frogs.
739 rifle sword-bayonet scabbards.
20 rifle sword waist belts.
777 carbine slings.
1,170 "swivels.
875 sword and sabre belts.
1,495 sword knots.
425 revolver holsters.
550 sets horse equipments,
4,331 saddle blankets.
170 saddles.
551 rounds of fixed ammunition for field artillery.
2,963,112 cartridges for small arms.
7,902,500 percussion caps for small arms.
4,986,500 Maynard's primers.
258,600 friction primers.
10,000 locks and breechpins.

The arms, equipments, ammunition, and other ordnance supplies which have been furnished for the regular service, during the fiscal year, are specified in statement C, hereto annexed.

With a view to ascertain the best pattern of horse equipments for the military service, this department has caused to be manufactured and put in service during the past year several hundred sets of the pattern selected by a board of officers of the mounted regiments, and of the pattern known as Hope's saddle, and much used in Texas. Three hundred sets of Jones' pattern have also been ordered, and are now in process of fabrication. The use of these and the Grimsley equipments in actual service will afford the means of comparing their relative merits, and enable us to select for adoption the whole, or such parts of either, as experience may show to be the best adapted to the requirements of the service.

http://books.google.com/books?pg=PA3&lp ... &q&f=false


“Another researcher” came across this mention of cruppers and breast straps for the Hope saddle whilst engaged in other research.
It is from a letter from the Colonel of Ordnance, H.K. Craig, to Capt. J. McNutt, Military Storekeeper at San Antonio Depot, dated April 2nd 1857:
"Sir
Colonel Johnston of 2nd Cavalry has suggested that cruppers and breast straps would, in his opinion, be advantageous on the Hope Saddles that are being made for this Department by Rice and Childress. As the intention is to give the saddle a fair trial, I can have no objections to the additions proposed by the Colonel, and you will please consult with him as to the best mode of attaching them...".

[The Egyptian Homeguard]

Re: Civillian saddles in the Union Army

Ken, Very interesting indeed! But, the google book link appears to be broken, can you double check it please? I'd like to read more! Thanks, Zack

[Ken Knopp]

Re: Civillian saddles in the Union Army

Sorry bout that.....try this.....Ken

http://books.google.com/books?pg=PA3&lpg=PA1&dq=Annual+report+of+the+secretary+of+war+report+of+the+chief+of+ordnance+1856&sig=bZSeCS4FtisLXYfyvXMfbgtDDRY&ei=CJ8DTdXEBsP6lwe38qjDCQ&ct=result&sqi=2&id=0YMsAAAAIAAJ&ots=Q6t9aMlM6p#v=onepage&q&f=false