Saddle question

[mosbyranger8]

I have a McClellan and am having some issues that have led to me posting some questions on this forum.

Main question... How common (if at all) would it be for CS soldiers/officers to modify their issued McClellan saddles? I am finding the need to do so with my own in order to make it fit properly with my cav horse.

I currently ride a compact and sturdy Mustang/arab mix. He is not a very big horse (OFF TOPIC- but is extremely well suited for cavalry), and as such I have had a difficult time fitting the tack I have purchased for him.

The main issue that I am having (which led to the main question above) is his belly is very rounded both towards the back AND the front. The roundness of his belly to the front is forcing the saddle girth to slide forward and therefore become loose, even under simple or "easy" riding conditions.

As i understand it, the McClellan is intended to fit in the middle of the horses' barrel. like this:



(this is not my horse; borrowed from a google search)

Something that doesn't help, BTW, is that the breastcollar has a lead going to the halter (acting as a tie down) and then another lead going down to loop around the girth. When my horse raises his head (to any degree) is simple pulls the girth forward (which of course makes the tied down useless). The circumference of his belly is smaller just behind his front legs, there fore the saddle becomes loose.

Anyway, I apologize for the long explanation.

What i am wondering is if I were to modify the leather straps (don't know what they are called) that come to a V right before the top of the girth strap would it be violating "authenticity"? Is this something they were even capable of doing back then?

my intent is to shorten the side of the V towards to front and lengthen the back so the girth rides just behind the front legs (in a modern western/english position).

Additionally, but less important, my crupper (which I imagine was made to history "spec") is too long. Both leads going to the back of the saddle are all the way tight and the saddle still moves too far forward when going downhill. It needs to be shortened as well (again, authentic or not???).

Thank you in advance for any advice/help/service,

Brett Cherry
43rd Virginia Cav

[Curt Schmidt]

Re: Saddle question

Hallo!

IMHO, that is a difficult question that the wording of the question seems to beg the one answer.

On the historical side, I do not see a cavalryman modifying his tack in such a way to match a "non standard" mount that likely would not have been accepted into service.
On the reenacting side, it is a Mental Picture issue of what compromises to authenticity a lad wants/needs to be able to play.

As a Confederate, would not an "other than" a McClellan period saddle might be a better option?

(In the Modern World, unrelated to the CW, I sometimes ride an Austrian Haflinger. Being essentially a barrel bodied large pony or small horse, a "pony girth" is too small and a "horse girth" is too big. As a result, the back saddle can slip sideways, requiring a one stirrup push to center it again.)

Curt

[Mike_Schramm]

Re: Saddle question

Brett,

Are you using a Surgincle?

Are you using a repo saddle?

[T.Kern]

Re: Saddle question

I have a McClellan and am having some issues that have led to me posting some questions on this forum.

Main question... How common (if at all) would it be for CS soldiers/officers to modify their issued McClellan saddles? I am finding the need to do so with my own in order to make it fit properly with my cav horse.

I currently ride a compact and sturdy Mustang/arab mix. He is not a very big horse (OFF TOPIC- but is extremely well suited for cavalry), and as such I have had a difficult time fitting the tack I have purchased for him.

The main issue that I am having (which led to the main question above) is his belly is very rounded both towards the back AND the front. The roundness of his belly to the front is forcing the saddle girth to slide forward and therefore become loose, even under simple or "easy" riding conditions.

As i understand it, the McClellan is intended to fit in the middle of the horses' barrel. like this:



(this is not my horse; borrowed from a google search)

Something that doesn't help, BTW, is that the breastcollar has a lead going to the halter (acting as a tie down) and then another lead going down to loop around the girth. When my horse raises his head (to any degree) is simple pulls the girth forward (which of course makes the tied down useless). The circumference of his belly is smaller just behind his front legs, there fore the saddle becomes loose.

Anyway, I apologize for the long explanation.

What i am wondering is if I were to modify the leather straps (don't know what they are called) that come to a V right before the top of the girth strap would it be violating "authenticity"? Is this something they were even capable of doing back then?

my intent is to shorten the side of the V towards to front and lengthen the back so the girth rides just behind the front legs (in a modern western/english position).

Additionally, but less important, my crupper (which I imagine was made to history "spec") is too long. Both leads going to the back of the saddle are all the way tight and the saddle still moves too far forward when going downhill. It needs to be shortened as well (again, authentic or not???).

Thank you in advance for any advice/help/service,

Brett Cherry
43rd Virginia Cav

While it would be possible for a saddler to do it, it would not be done. Nor was the McClellan the issued saddle for most of the war. Nor should you be using a tie down with a breast strap. Nor should you be using what I imagine is the brass heart breast, try using a surcingle instead as that is well documented. My advice to you is get a saddle that fits your horse, unless we can find what isn't working with yours. Who made your saddle and what kind of girth is it? If you are anywhere in the Virginia area I would be glad to help with this problem. Some of it might be how you are girthing, as most reenactors girth wrong- backwards.
Todd Kern

[volcav]

Re: Saddle question

I know it's documented that surcingles were used as breast straps so I'm not looking for a fight with what I'm about to post. I'm trying to answer the man's question and help him fix his problem.

The correct way to put the surcingle on is to strap it on behind the saddle girth. If you aren't using one you should be and that might solve your problem. They are less than fifty dollars. If you are using one and having the problem anyway, you can try strapping it on in front of the girth. That may keep your girth from sliding forward. If you choose to try this you may find that it rubs a sore spot on your horse at the joint of the leg and body. Before I found out that the surcingle was supposed to be behind the girth instead of in front of it I had the problem with the sore spot. As each horse is different you may not have that problem. It's an option to consider.

Another thing you can do is to take a leather punch and put more holes in your crupper so you can tighten it up more.

Do the same with the breast strap if you need to. As for the tie down, if you don't really need it don't use it. But if you think it is a safety issue not to use it then continue to do so. So may already know this but I'll put it out here anyway just in case. When you're using a tie-down, give your horse enough slack to carry his head naturally. If you do that he shouldn't be trying to throw his head around which you say is pulling your girth forward. Being a Morgan/Arab cross he probably has a higher natural headset than a quarter horse. If your cranking on the tie-down to get a western pleasure level or peanut roller headset you're probably causing your horse some pain and discomfort which would result in him throwing his head trying to relieve the pain.

I'm offering these suggestions as ways to work with what you have. If you are using the girth, crupper, breast collar, and surcingle and they are all properly adjusted to your horse your saddle shouldn't be slipping even if it isn't a perfect fit.

[CJSchumacher]

Re: Saddle question

The photo originally posted didn't come out for me, but I read the post and have to ask...are you just improperly girthing? Your quote "the McClellan is intended to fit in the middle of the horses' barrel" just sounds all wrong to me. The quarter straps DO focus the downward pressure holding the saddle onto the middle of the BARS, but the girth is not meanth to be in the "middle of the horses barrel". The girth should rest behind the front legs by a few inches like most other saddles. Make sure the saddle fits properly and you have it properly seated on the shoulder and above/over the withers. Like Todd said, get rid of the breastrap with a McClellan or use a civilian model or even use a surcingle. Only use a tie-down strap if necessary.

The girth should fit fine on an arab/morgan cross if its properly seated. Buy a surcingle and use the overgirth as its intended...OVER the saddle, including quarter straps, and seated just on top of and behind the girth. This is common sense, but worth stating be sure to put the wool webbing portion of the surcingle against the horse...I've seen it otherwise...

When in doubt...look to history and the original soldiers.

[Mike_Schramm]

Re: Saddle question

Brett,

I used the properties of your picture and pulled it up. That Horse is wearing what looks like a 1904 McClellan. Even though both saddles are quarter rigged, to my eye the 1859 carries the girth straps a bit more forward.

[Linkstrap]

Re: Saddle question

Post edited, (due to my complete inability to delete it!)

[Daniel_Gregory]

Re: Saddle question

Just to aid in this discussion - the picture referred to in the original post (as it is not appearing in the original post), as well as by Mike_Schramm can be found here: http://image14.webshots.com/14/1/31/...1VnTJob_fs.jpg

I also found it through the properties. :)

[mosbyranger8]

Re: Saddle question

A lot to answer!!!

First off thank you all for the immediate and detailed answers.

I intend to take some detailed pictures of my horse and me with tack this weekend to illustrate the details. I am hoping that it'll help in your answering my questions.

That being said, a lot has been answered already. I am sorry if miss something in this reply.

1) No, i am not using a surcingle. history aside, I am interested in as little tack as possible on my horse. I had never before seen a need for the surcingle. I will revisit this.

2) Yes i am using the heart shape breastcollar (although, not brass). It came with the tack "set" i bought, so I use it. I don't like using the tied down but it's attached to the collar and i don't want it to dangle between his legs. I will delete the whole thing all together.

3) as far as a "other than Mcclellan saddle"... I am simply using what i have and, even though they are over represented in reenactment, I do not intend to replace something that works pretty good already. Maybe when there's more $$$

4) by "repo" do you mean reproduction or repossessed ;-)? i think you mean reproduction, the answer is Yes. I don't know where it was made or how old it is. I bought it second hand, or third, fourth, etc. for all I know.

5) "leather punch" for crupper: already done. pics to come

6) again with tie down: I do not attach it with the intent of "keeping his head down" but simply because it is there. He is a half mustang (not morgan) and arab, so yes his head rides high pretty much all the time, I'm used to it.

7) thank you for reposting the link for the picture (is it because i am new that i'm not allowed to post links/pictures???). Where that saddle is on that horse is exactly how i was shown to "properly" fit a McClellan. That is what i meant by "middle of the barrel". That being said, i love the picture posted of the period horse and rider (wonderful detail!!). With that picture specifically, the girth is in the position i would want mine to be, but the saddle (like mine when the girth is forward) is riding too far forward for me and my horse. He's just too compact and neck too high for me to be comfortable riding that far forward with the saddle. I definitely need it at least 3-4 more inches back than in the picture posted by CJSchumacher. I hope that makes sense.

7) i recognized it to be a 1904 McClellan right away but it was the first picture that illustrated what i was trying to say. That being said, aren't they pretty much the same design? (mostly anyway). From pictures (not experience) it looks like have the same "plane", relative front to back, for the girth. (BTW, what does "quarter rigged" mean?)

8) i hope this works. I am posting pictures of the girth "plane difference". I need my mcclellan to be more on the same plane as a modern western saddle

h t t p://picasaweb.google.com/brettcherry8/Desktop#5343209744209450898

h t t p://picasaweb.google.com/brettcherry8/Desktop#5343209771557504818

i put spaces in the "http" in case i'm not allowed to post links yet. I hope that works.

Again, thank you for all your help. I'll admit, this is pretty fun figuring all this stuff out. I love reenacting! what started out as a love for guns and horses has turned into a GREAT love of the history behind it all.

Here is a picture of us killin' it on the battlefield. This was my first battle with ALL borrowed stuff (even the horse himself, who I am now proud to own) so I am probably "FARBed" out the wazoo!! Go easy on me!! BTW, in the picture his girth (and therefore the whole saddle) is in the forward position I can't stand. At the time I was having too much fun to notice or care!!

h t t p://picasaweb.google.com/brettcherry8/CivilWar#5342768092311629266

Thanks!!

Brett Cherry

[Daniel_Gregory]

Re: Saddle question

Without wanting to 'teach my grandmother to suck eggs' - surely one should be positioning the saddle where is most comfortable and correct fitting for the horse, not where is most comfortable for the rider. A badly fitted/positioned saddle can cause untold discomfort and physical harm to a horse.

[Mike_Schramm]

Re: Saddle question

Rigging is the distance the girth is connected when compared to the distance from the Cantle to the fork.

The Western in your first picture is "full" rigged. Meaning it is the full distance.

The 1859 in Western saddle terms is 3/4 rigged (3/4 of the distance). I have seen the McClellan referred to as 1/4 rigged.

If you put both saddles in the same spot, the girths will therefore not be in the same spot.

You really need to use a surgincle.

Also, I will agree with Daniel that you need to put the saddle where it fits the horse. Is there something that is "telling" you that the horse doesn't like where the saddle is?

[Mike_Schramm]

Re: Saddle question

[mosbyranger8]

Re: Saddle question

Rigging is the distance the girth is connected when compared to the distance from the Cantle to the fork.

The Western in your first picture is "full" rigged. Meaning it is the full distance.

The 1859 in Western saddle terms is 3/4 rigged (3/4 of the distance). I have seen the McClellan referred to as 1/4 rigged.

If you put both saddles in the same spot, the girths will therefore not be in the same spot.

You really need to use a surgincle.

Also, I will agree with Daniel that you need to put the saddle where it fits the horse. Is there something that is "telling" you that the horse doesn't like where the saddle is?

Got it!! thank you for the education.

When the girth is in what i would call the most "secure" position, or "full"y forward, the saddle rides up on his withers and his neck pinches when he raises his head. He doesn't necessarily "tell" me it hurts, it just makes sense to me that it would not be as comfortable as if it were farther back.

So... if i knew the correct verbage, I would have simply asked in my original post... "was it possible to procure, or modify, a mcclellan that is full rigged during the civil war?"

[Mike_Schramm]

Re: Saddle question

I don't manufacture saddles but looking at the straps, you would need to reconnect the straps going from the tree to the ring so that it could be closer (7/8) or all the way (full). Otherwise the straps would twist leaving the tree.

I don't know if you have seen this thread , but you can ride a full rigged "civilian" saddle. General Johnson has a western looking saddle attributed to him that appears to be full.

I have seen pictures here of Mosby's men dressed as civilians, but I have not seen data about saddle usage by his men.