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  • #46
    Re: Horse Breed

    I hate myself for having been drawn into this no-win contest, but I feel obliged to offer at least a necessarily truncated response, after which I am bowing out of the discussion. First, permit me to say that I have the utmost respect for Hank and Linda Trent; they are perhaps the foremost authorities on mid-19th century husbandry in the hobby and they're aces in my book! I offer the following for informational purposes only; it is not my intent to question anyone's opinion or interpretation of the historical record. Volumes have been written on this subject, and we will not settle any of the issues here. READ. And then read some more...

    "History," said Bonaparte, "is a set of lies agreed upon." And ironically enough, I doubt very seriously whether the Little Corporal actually uttered this pithy comment, so there ya go. History is subjective by definition, as it is the nature of events as seen through the reporter's filter--and every human being has biases, whether conscious or subconscious.

    This subject has been masticated to death on the pre-crash incarnation of this forum and another now (mercifully) defunct cavalry forum, so this really does become somewhat tedious. It always seems to devolve into a p*ssing match in which some folks are determined to justify the use of their favorite breed, rather than a forthright attempt to determine the nature of the typical troop horse. So sad.

    My reference library is entirely packed away, so I can't even begin to present all the requisite data even if I had the time to do so (and I do not). So please bear with me as I attempt to offer just a few nuggets for your thoughtful consideration:

    The volume of contemporary literature on the subject is indeed massive, but it is not necessarily reliable simply by virtue of being published during the period. And while period sources might refer to a particular bloodline or "stock," cross-breeding was ubiquitous and they are not referring to "breeds" in the modern connotation of the term. For example, unlike the Thoroughbred, the original antecedents of the Morgan horse are dubious at best, and I can even recall reading an article in a New England agricultural journal in which the author notes the rising values of "Morgan stock" (again, I believe the use of the term "stock" justifies rather broad application) and actually encourages farmers who have horses for sale that possess Morgan-like characteristics (stocky build w/thick crest, wavy mane/tail, etc) to call them "Morgan horses" to realize a better selling price! Jeez, that doesn't screw up that bloodline thang a'tall! I can't emphasize this enough: In the mid-19th century, horse breeding was a free-for-all. So you'll be better served by getting that breed idea out of your head.

    Now, about the Thoroughbred. The development of the TB in England is well-documented and the first TB recorded to have been imported into the American colonies was "Bulle Rock," a stallion, who arrived in Virginia in 1730. In the early years of the following decade a TB mare named "Bonny Lass" also found a new home in the colonies. The earliest attempt to methodically record TB bloodlines in this country I am aware of was John Stuart Skinner's American Turf Register and Sporting Magazine, which was instituted in 1829 for the express purpose of preventing the introduction of spurious pedigrees into the TB fold and generally promoting the improvement of the breed. It was enormously influential during the period with which we are concerned. It appeared in numerous editions throughout the antebellum period.

    By the 1860s, the TB was held in such high regard that a gentleman attempting to raise a company of cavalry for service with the 17th Pennsylvania regiment based his credentials for command solely upon the fact that he was the owner of "Black Warrior," a celebrated gladiator of the turf. And in an article on "Morgans as Army Horses," Captain Frazier Boutelle said, "I love the thoroughbred, I like to say 'thoroughbred.' It leaves a good taste in my mouth." In his gargantuan tome, the Military Dictionary, Colonel Henry L. Scott (Inspector General of the US Army) noted: "The thoroughbred horse enters into every other breed, and adds or often gives to it its only value. For a superior charger, hunter, or saddle horse, three parts or one-half should be of pure blood; but for the horse of all work, less will answer. The road horse, according to the work required of him should, like the hunter, possess different degrees of blood." [emphasis is Scott's]. The definitive works on the American Thoroughbred horse were penned by Alexander Mackay-Smith, and I highly recommend them to you.

    The "quarter pather" originated in colonial times. It was a cross of the local descendants of the Andalusian horses brought to the New World by the Spanish (called the "Chickasaw horse" by the Native Americans) and the Thoroughbred. The Quarter Horse (as defined by the modern breed organization) was the result of a breeding program carried on by the King Ranch, and the modern conformation very likely bears little resemblance (and no verifiable blood association) to the colonial quarter pather--they are not the same animal, just share a similar designation. The "quarter nags" referred to would be the descendants of the quarter pather, and not the antecedents of the modern Quarter Horse. Consult Robert Denhardt's excellent works for more data on this subject.

    The Keeneland library is indeed an superb resource, and don't overlook the National Sporting Library in Middleburg, Virginia--it is nothing short of phenomenal. The Marion duPont Scott Collection in the Special Collections holdings at the University of Virginia is also a veritable gold mine of equestrian literature.

    READ.

    And even if you choose to discount the American Turf Register's bona fides, the fact that no other breed had been formally established as such by the Civil War years renders these arguments about the appropriate employment of modern breeds in reenacting moot. Select your mount (his physical attributes, at any rate) based on reliable period documentation--ie, photographic evidence. How can you go wrong? Who cares what breed it is??? And please disregard generals' mounts out of hand. You are not a general, bunkie. Find yourself a scruffy little "easy keeper" of a solid darkish color with little or no white on it's legs, good feet, a round trot and an easy-going disposition, and you'll be just fine. Oh, and be sure a McClellan, Jenifer, or other appropriate period saddle will fit your chosen Rosinante...

    I leave you to it.

    ~Aden
    Last edited by neocelt; 06-15-2009, 04:39 PM.
    [FONT=Book Antiqua][SIZE=3][B]Aden Nichols
    [/B][/SIZE][SIZE=2]"Great spirits have always experienced violent opposition from mediocre minds." Albert Einstein[/SIZE][/FONT]

    Comment


    • #47
      Re: Horse Breed

      Originally posted by neocelt View Post
      I hate myself for having been drawn into this no-win contest
      Aden, I don't feel as though it's a no-win contest. I'm not out to win, I'm out to learn, as I hope most of us are. I'm not trying to justify Quarter horses or any other sort of horse, all I'm saying is that I don't believe that large barreled horses didn't exist. It just seems too natural to breed a draught and a riding horse to get an all purpose horse. Personally, I don't have a dog in the fight since I have neither a horse nor a dog at this time. :D

      The volume of contemporary literature on the subject is indeed massive, but it is not necessarily reliable simply by virtue of being published during the period.
      Absolutely. Which is why I believe extensive researching and reading as much as possible primarily in period sources or well documented secondary sources is so important.

      unlike the Thoroughbred, the original antecedents of the Morgan horse are dubious at best, and I can even recall reading an article in a New England agricultural journal in which the author notes the rising values of "Morgan stock" (again, I believe the use of the term "stock" justifies rather broad application) and actually encourages farmers who have horse for sale that possess Morgan-like characteristics (stocky build w/thick crest, wavy mane/tail, etc) to call them "Morgan horses" to realize a better selling price!
      I fully agree. I've read that before, myself, but like you I cannot recall where at the moment. But since we both recall reading it, I'll leave it at that for now. :)

      Of course even the early thoroughbreds may have changed. For example, the librarian at Keeneland was talking with us about the Barbaro incident, so fresh on our minds at that time as Big Brown was preparing for the Belmont. We were talking about the conformation and one thing that she noted was that thoroughbreds back then didn't have such small bones in their legs. Their legs were heftier. Of course smaller bones have allowed them to run a faster mile. Back in the old days they needed stronger bones because they did four mile heats.

      But even early thoroughbred bloodlines are questioned, even in the era. Bruce was preparing his book when Wallace came out with a stud book. Bruce's stud book was well received, but to help its success, there was a scathing review of Wallace's stud book in the "Turf, Field and Farm," pointing out all the errors in Wallace's book, and plenty of positive notice about Bruce's stud book. But other's criticized Bruce for fudging his stud book as well for his horse owning friends. So who knows, but Bruce's book is the book still used by the Jockey club today.

      So you'll be better served by getting that breed idea out of your head.
      We couldn't agree more. That's part of my whole point.

      John Stuart Skinner's American Turf Register and Sporting Magazine, which was instituted in 1829 for the express purpose of preventing the introduction of spurious pedigrees into the TB fold and generally promoting the improvement of the breed.
      Thank you. That is what I wanted to know. I was unaware of this.

      The Keeneland library is indeed an superb resource, and don't overlook the National Sporting Library in Middleburg, Virginia--it is nothing short of phenomenal. The Marion duPont Scott Collection in the Special Collections holdings at the University of Virginia is also a veritable gold mine of equestrian literature.
      And the Kentucky Horse Park, they have an excellent library. :D

      READ.
      I agree whole-heartedly in the entire paragraph under this, and I feel as though it's probably about the best thing to come out of this thread. :tounge_sm Thank you for taking the time to answer my questions.

      Linda.
      Linda Trent
      [email]linda_trent@att.net[/email]

      “It ain’t what you know that gets you into trouble.
      It’s what you know that just ain’t so.” Mark Twain.

      Comment


      • #48
        Re: Horse Breed

        Linda,

        Though I posted my comments in the wake of yours, they were certainly not aimed at you and I hope you'll accept my apologies. Yours is a refreshing voice of reason (and research!) in a sea of hearsay and supposition. You obviously do assiduously study the primary material available, as well as the academic and/or well-researched secondary literature on the subject. Rather, I was addressing the posters and readers of the thread at-large.

        The reason I referred to this topic as a "no-win contest" is that one cannot have a meaningful discourse when the deck is stacked and there is an underlying agenda being defended. The subject of whether a given modern breed is "authentic" is spurious on its face; the question should be recast to eliminate the sub-rosa bias which inevitably leads to the self-serving hyperbole (indeed, propaganda) of one or more breed associations. Of course all references--both period and modern--should be scrutinized for credibility and verisimilitude. Contemporary equestrian scribes had biases as well (and were generally not trained historians), and precious few modern "cavalry" historians have ever thrown a leg over a good 'un.

        ~Aden

        Mair go simplí. Gráigh go fial. Labhair go cineálta.
        [FONT=Book Antiqua][SIZE=3][B]Aden Nichols
        [/B][/SIZE][SIZE=2]"Great spirits have always experienced violent opposition from mediocre minds." Albert Einstein[/SIZE][/FONT]

        Comment


        • #49
          Re: Horse Breed

          Here's my 2 cents worth.
          My 87 year old father grew up on a working 160 acre farm in northern Wisconsin. The property is still in the family. I've visited several times, and actually seen shoes from the team of farm horses that were integral in the day-to-day farm operation even after they acquired gas-fired machinery. Probably like a size 5 shoes. I asked my father what breed they were. "Farm horses" was his answer. I asked if he didn't remember, or did he ever know the breed. He said he did not, his father may well have, but they never discussed or remarked on the breed.
          Now granted this was 1920-30's, but the "breed" seemed unimportant to the fella working them.
          Just an observation.
          Just a private soldier trying to make a difference

          Patrick Peterson
          Old wore out Bugler

          Comment


          • #50
            Re: Horse Breed

            I have followed this post with interest, and found some very good, well thought out, responses. My opinion is that there is no one or general answer to the original querry.

            My family has had horses since my ancestor "created" American style Horse Racing...William Whitley, KY. We've had racehorses, cutting, trail, pack, well you name it. I've seen many descriptions of their horses, but never anything like "just a horse." Some favor one over another. But in the research I've done on our records they all seemed to favor "a big horse." Yes, that description comes up time and again for 200 + years of records. There are often breed names or blood lines mentioned, and typically seen in buis. records, wills, court records, etc. My grandfather said he liked his horses big so he could get there first and get it done when he got there. Now call that breed what you will. During the war, many family records show TBs as property. These were rarely race horses, but used for everything. They were in Texas, and frequently brought in horses from "back East" noting the lack of good horses in Texas. Many accounts of the era state that Texas horses were commonly mentioned by people as smaller than say KY, or MO, or VA horses.

            Now with that in mind, typically, "A big horse" in 1860 would be medium today. Well bred horses then weren't normally as big as today's horses. That has been mentioned by someone already, and is why most saddles of the era don't set right. Were there poor matches for saddle to horse, sure prolly. But, I'd like to see proof that it was common practice to knowingly damage your mode of transportation. One of my kin in Texas during the war was known for his "big horse" all 900 some lbs of it. Call that big today and you'd be laughed at. I have a WPA era slave narrative transcript of a kins former slave who still remembered being proud her "white folks" had big, fast, horses. All his property records I've seen show nothing that would be called big today.


            Also, I think that your impression is more important to answering the question. If your impression was from the South or the North? Where did the men draw the mounts? What year, as supply changed, so could your mount quality. Was yours a unit where men supplied their own? In short, IMHO there is no one answer.

            Go with a Mule, if your impression allows, then you can avoid all this mess.:wink_smil

            Rae Whitley
            Last edited by Sut Lovingood; 06-16-2009, 04:26 AM.
            Rae G. Whitley
            [I]Museum of the Horse Soldier[/I]

            Tucson, AZ

            Comment


            • #51
              Re: Horse Breed

              Originally posted by Sut Lovingood View Post
              Now with that in mind, typically, "A big horse" in 1860 would be medium today. Well bred horses then weren't normally as big as today's horses.
              I think a lot has to do with the breeding, because I'm seeing horses about the same size. Thorough-breds 16 hh+, and Morgans averaging about 15.25 hh and weighing about 1100#. Daniel Linsley in his book Morgan Horses, gives the pedigrees and a description of the breeding stallions. I didn't go over every page, but on page 273 in describing the Charles Smith Horse wrote: "Small size, weight 900." Many of the Morgan stallions were 16 hh. I wonder if the "big horse" at 900# was just something people joked about. I dunno, either that or not everything in Texas was bigger!

              There are numerous accounts of poor fitting saddles, because "Nature has moulded the bodies of horses in an endless variety of forms; whereas a saddle tree which is the foundation and skeleton of the saddle, is made by thousands in the same entire unyielding shape: consequently, though it may fit a few, it will not suit the many, unless purposely made for each respective horse, which is impracticable..." Granted, this was 1826, in the Sporting Magazine, but it does show that horses varied in body-type in the first half of the 19th century.

              This leads me back to the big muscled, round barreled, broad chested horses. In my research over the last few days I have found where Thorough-bred and/or Morgan mares were put to Normans and other draught horses to develop the 'horse of all uses.' As the author above stated there were horses of an endless variety of forms, so why not bodies similar to what the Quarter Horse is? That's what I would tend to expect to see from a Morgan/Norman cross. I'd like to see the evidence that the King Ranch actually bred the first AQHA body-type. I do believe that they perfected it over the long run. In other words, they actually bred for a standard or model over a long enough period of time to develop the breed, and along with the body-type they added the size, shape, performance abilities, temperament, color, etc. So they developed the complete package.

              I agree that a person's impression is the most important thing. As a civilian I tend to be more concerned about the horse I have in my field that takes me marketing in the wagon, and plows the field, and that my husband (occasionally a doctor) can ride or drive when making calls. :D

              Well, a storm's blowing in and I don't want to lose what I have, so hopefully this is clear enough.

              Linda.
              linda_trent@att.net
              Last edited by LindaTrent; 06-16-2009, 11:00 PM. Reason: Forgot to add quote from Linsley
              Linda Trent
              [email]linda_trent@att.net[/email]

              “It ain’t what you know that gets you into trouble.
              It’s what you know that just ain’t so.” Mark Twain.

              Comment


              • #52
                Re: Horse Breed

                Linda, I too feel breeding had a lot to do with it, the pre war 4 mile TB races were shortened after the war to 16 furlongs and less . Breeding of horses changed for TBs tremendously with that new distance as an influence.

                I am somewhat familiar with the Morgan Horse book, but had to go back to review. I would agree that 1000 pounders were commonly noted by Linsley at 16 hands. I would not readily compare these trotters in mainly VT, NH, or NY as were mentioned in the book, to what was typical in Texas, where old Spanish stock and the like permeated. I am admittedly more familiar with Horses in TX than New England in the 1860s. I would say the horses, even same breed, would have been bred for different purposes causing common somewhere as being out of the ordinary somewhere else. Do you have any tips on books documenting horses other than New England. I have been forced to just go through and look for bills of sale, etc. From what I have seen, those Morgan weights would have been pretty big around 1850s Hill Country. Not everything in Texas is bigger, we just have the ability to make people think it is so.:wink_smil If you can't dazzle them with brilliance, then baffle them with ...

                I admit that your question about the King family has be curious. Have you asked the QH museum in Amarillo what they have? I have never really looked into it but know my Waggoner relations were up breeding at the same time as King and had many early TX QHs.

                And I would say that there were frequently poor fitting saddles that had to be padded up. My first comment was flippant. This post has been great, and has brought up many good points.

                Rae Whitley
                Rae G. Whitley
                [I]Museum of the Horse Soldier[/I]

                Tucson, AZ

                Comment


                • #53
                  Texas and Palomino

                  Most all my sources are Google Books.

                  Originally posted by Sut Lovingood View Post
                  I would agree that 1000 pounders were commonly noted by Linsley at 16 hands.
                  Actually, 1000 pounders were commonly noted at 15 hands, and 16 handers were 1050 on up (at least of the first 53 that I looked at).

                  Hi Rae,

                  You are correct though, that Texas horses (at least the Spanish ones) did tend to be quite small. So it is quite possible that your kin rode a 900# "big horse." Just a few examples:

                  "In talking of the mustang used by the Comanches in Texas. Their heads are extremely long, coarse, and large; the neck ewed and long, withers usually high, shoulder upright, arm long from the shoulder to the knee, and short from the knee to the fetlock joint, which is astonishingly long; foot large, broad, and flat; hoof generally white and soft; barrel small, back long, stern contracted, thigh long and spare; the lower extremeties of the hind quarters resemble those of the fore; height from twelve to fifteen hands."

                  Linsley did record two Morgans who were 15 hands and weighed less than 1000#, so it is possible that a 15hh mustang could be big and still weigh only 900#.

                  Henry Herbert in his Horses, Mules and Ponies gave the average height of the "Mustang onf the Mexican and Texan prairies... is under-sized, very slight limbed, and often ill and disproportionately made, with the neck or the back, or both, far too long for either symmetry or strength..."

                  And finally in A Journey through Texas, in the Appendix there were two ads for horses. The first stole, and the other strayed or stolen. The first also touches on the palomino question. :tounge_sm
                  $100 REWARD Stop the Horse-Theif! Stolen from the undersigned, living in Austin, on the night of the 7th of Aug., a cream-colored American horse, 5 years old, 16 hands high, with a blaze face, shod all round, paces well, and has some white spots about his breast and shoulders from tick bites. A Texas-rigged saddle, with hair girth, and a brass-plated stiff-bit bridle, with new leather reins, were taken with the horse. I will give the above reward for the apprehension of the thief and recovery of the horse, or twenty-five dollars for the recovery of the horse. Ernst Raven.
                  What I find interesting is the horse is worth $25, but the gear is worth $75! Cream colored with a white mane and tail says palomino to me, though I've never seen palomino used in a period source. Any thoughts on that?

                  Also in that same source is another ad:
                  $10 REWARD. Strayed or stolen from the subscriber, one brown mare, about 14 hands high, branded with a Spanish brand on the left hind hip, and the letter D on the left shoulder. She has a long black tail, mane and legs black, also, star in her forhead, saddle-marks on her right side, and has been fly-blown about the root of the tail; about 7 years old, very skittish, and not easily caught. Casper Steussey.
                  But I think that we hit on another important point when it comes to horses, and that is regional. You weren't the first to say that well bred horses weren't normally as big as today's horses, several have made that comment, and I'd like to see more on that because my main area of interest isn't in NE either, but is in the area of Ohio, Virginia, Kentucky and Kentucky, though events cause me to be interested in broader areas as well.

                  Even if I don't have a horse at an event, I should be familiar enough to know if a cavalry man rides up whether his mount would be considered big, average or small compared to what my character would be familiar with.

                  Do you have any tips on books documenting horses other than New England.
                  I do have several original agricultural books and such, but most of them don't talk about height or weight. What I turn to mostly is Google Books and/or period newspapers like those on ancestry.com which contains a large amount of period newspapers from all around the country. Though admittedly for obvious reasons there aren't many dating to the war or before from the South. :cry_smile

                  Since most people can search Google Books, I decided to search Ancestry.com's newspaper collection (since it's a paid subscription). Most of what I'm searching are stolen or strayed horses, though from time to time I get other interesting facts. I'm focusing my attention on the four sections of the country as well as the interior to give a wide span. Included in my next post will be an article on the Arabian Horse, where the author spent a number of years in Arabia and recorded the average size, as well as colors.

                  More later,

                  Linda.
                  Linda Trent
                  [email]linda_trent@att.net[/email]

                  “It ain’t what you know that gets you into trouble.
                  It’s what you know that just ain’t so.” Mark Twain.

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    Re: Horse Breed

                    All my sources are from Ancestry.com Historic Newspaper search.

                    Alton Illinois Weekly Courier late 50s. (lost or stolen)
                    smallest horse 15hh, largest horse and 16hh. Average size about 15.5hh. The largest number of horses in any group there were five 16hh (three which had saddles stolen at the same time). There was one that was 15.5hh, and three that were 15, none smaller than 15 hands that were reported missing. Two horses, were taller than 16hh one being of "Top Gallant" stock. Top Gallant was listed in the Clydesdale stud book as having been foaled in 1850.

                    Standing stud in the Alton area was "Young America" a thorough-bred Morgan horse standing 15hh and weighing 1100#

                    Burlington, Iowa Weekly Hawkeye early to mid 60s. (lost or stolen)
                    smallest horse 13hh "poney built," largest horse 16hh. Average height was probably about 15 hh. There was one 14.5hh horse, four 15hh, and 3 16hh. One of the 15hh was the editor's buggy horse. He'd gone out hunting and had a good hunt, but when he returned his horse with silver decorated harness were gone, and the carriage still where he left it, one of the 16hh horses had collar marks, but was taken with a Spanish saddle. My guess is he was trained to ride and plow.

                    The Burlington paper was the one with the info on the pure Arabian horse, but unfortunately I'm not sure how much the info helps, since it's very specific to the Royal stud, where the horses are never sold, and the only way for someone to obtain one was through war, or as a gift. So it would not pertain to the majority of American horses. But... here's what the findings of the Englishman. They were a "small breed, rarely exceeding 15hh," their "prevailing color" gray, not a bay to be found. Occasionally there was a chestnut, some mottled a few white, but none perfectly black.

                    Canton, Ohio The Repository 1846-1857

                    Three horses were reported missing all 15 hh.
                    Standing stud: Trotting Morgan Stallion "Champlain." Champlain will be six years old the 15th day of next June, is a bright chestnut color, sixteen and a half hands high, and weighs 1300 pounds.

                    Continuing to prove western horses smaller is the All Mountain Democrat out of Placerville, California.
                    Seven horses were reported missing and/or found. Of those three were fourteen hands, one 14.5, two 15 and one 15.5. I'm starting to wonder if the smaller ones were more Spanish, while the taller were American, as mentioned in the $100 Reward in my above post.

                    Now I've switched to Raleigh, North Carolina and the Weekly Standard. I have to post this just for the humor. Besides, it'll prove 15hh mules. :-)

                    Strayed Off. Strayed from my plantation two weeks ago, a likely black or brown bay mare mule, three years old, about fifteen hands high, the body long and gaunt, with roached mane and tail, has on her the marks of the harness, skinned hocks and swollen chin. It is supposed to be making its way back to Kentucky, via Hillsborough and Greensborough. I will give five dollars to any one to put up said mule, and inform me here.
                    May 1861.

                    Another good one from the same source is: Caution to the Public. $150 REWARD.

                    The above reward will be paid for the apprehension and confinement in prison in order to his being brought to justice, of a man calling himself Wm. R. or G.D. Wilson, et. als., who came to my house on the 11th of August last under the pretence of going to Hon. Abram Venable's to purchase a buggy. His respectable appearance and plausible story deceived me, and I was induced to loan him a new sett of harness and my fine mare, neither of which I have seen since. She was a dark bay, almost black, and 17 hands high. He left behind him a small bay mule which was no doubt stolen. Said mare has a star on her forehead, a scar on each side of her neck caused by wearing a yoke, a scar on the left hock and her right eye a glass colored one.
                    I will give one hundred dollars for the apprehension of the villain, or fifty dollars for the delivery of my mare to me at Stephen Pool's old mill on Asron's Creek, Mecklenburg County, Va.
                    This fellow makes high pretensions of being respectably connected of his being engaged in trading in salt, wheat, corn, &c., has a fine appearance, is about 45 or 50 years of age, keen blue eyes, light hair, red whiskers when not dyed, is very loquacious, and is about 5 feet 10 inches high. From what I can learn, he may be no other than Edward Bolling, the celebrated bigamist.
                    A nearly 17hh large bay horse was taken from the stable of a gentleman by a "deserter from Camp Holmes." 5 Nov. 1862 and finally the 7th Reg't Confederate Cav. "stationed near Kinston, NY on May 15th 1863. A roan mare, long black mane and tail, slim bodied, and thin in order, 14 or 15 hands high, good eyes, and about 7 years old." Liberal reward Lieut. Gaither Co. G, 7th Conf. Cav. Co. A 59th Reg't also came up missing some horses in the same issue, but neither give size or weight. The only hints are medium size and small size.

                    Well, that's enough. I do realize that this doesn't say anything about the weight or the conformation, but it does give heights. And I do tend to find it interesting how in the former Spanish settled areas the horses do tend to be smaller, at least those of Spanish bloodlines, though often American horses are described as taller. The other thing that many of these ads touched on were scars caused by the saddle. There were more of those than one might like to think.

                    Linda.
                    Last edited by LindaTrent; 06-17-2009, 02:56 PM. Reason: fix quotes
                    Linda Trent
                    [email]linda_trent@att.net[/email]

                    “It ain’t what you know that gets you into trouble.
                    It’s what you know that just ain’t so.” Mark Twain.

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      Re: Horse Breed

                      Excellent posts Mrs Trent. Thank you for taking the time.

                      As for Texas. Never underestimate the importance of this horse : http://www.rice.edu/armadillo/Texas/steeldust.html

                      I will let his lineage speak for itself and this is not from the AQHA : http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/steel+dust

                      There have been several execellent posts on this thread by some excellent cavalry historians that I both respect and admire, but I am going to have to disagree on the QH question. Yes they have changed due to the influence of the big , moneymakers like The King ranch ( many believe to the detriment of the breed, having strayed to far from the original ideal) but so has EVERY OTHER "modern" breed been changed over time. I am sticking to my conclusion that the prejiduce against them has more to do with who is riding them than whether they are a "period" horse . The King ranch also is known for breeding racing QH stock. I actually owned a mare back in the early nineties out of QH racing stock that traced her lineage back to Steel Dust. It is a vastly differnet body type than what we generally think of as the modern QH, looking for all she was worth like a slightly smaller, closer coupled thoroughbred. Which , in essence, she was and so was, in my opinion, the early QH.
                      But they were here and the colonials were racing them before there ever was a Kentucky or a United States for that matter. This is as good as any history of them I have seen and this IS NOT from the AQHA. http://ultimatehorsesite.com/breedso...rterhorse.html

                      I am just not sure why that is so hard to accept unless for the reason stated above. Having said all that,

                      I AM NOT TRYING TO JUSTIFY ANY BREED FOR REENACTING. Just the facts as I understand them.

                      As for you fans of the long ears out there I can only say you dont have to go very far at all or even past very common period scources, to see many very ,very, good reasons why mules do not make good cavalry mounts.

                      Mrs. Trent is also correct about sore backs. There are many accounts of this and so many reports of sore-backed cavalry mounts. I have got to conclude, as I stated earlier in another post that at least SOME of those , surely,were a result of poor saddle fit. Whether that was a result of hard work and poor feed or simply the saddles didn't fit to begin with, I don't know. I am certainly not suggesting that it was intentional although why that would surprise anyone is beyond me given the many borderline cruel things I have seen modern "reenactors" and yes, in particular, at the big shows, do to their horses even today when we are supposed to be "enlightened."

                      thanks,
                      Patrick McAllister
                      Saddlebum

                      "Bíonn grásta Dé idir an diallait agus an talamh

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                      • #56
                        Re: Horse Breed

                        Originally posted by cavman63 View Post
                        Mrs. Trent is also correct about sore backs. There are many accounts of this and so many reports of sore-backed cavalry mounts. I have got to conclude, as I stated earlier in another post that at least SOME of those , surely,were a result of poor saddle fit. Whether that was a result of hard work and poor feed or simply the saddles didn't fit to begin with, I don't know.
                        thanks,
                        I would argue in fact that sore backs was one of the biggest debilitators/killers of CW cavalry horses. Certainly with the raw number of animals being used off all sizes and shapes fit was an issue for some or many. Neglect was another issue. Not "animal cruelty" type neglect, but the simple inability and in some case ignorance of proper animal care. To see that one just has to look at the number of Fed camps where the horses were picketed all winter with absolutely no shelter, and tied knee deep in mud etc.

                        Finally of course is simple overwork. With the amount of wear that those animals experienced, rubs and sores have to happen. A modern human example are the blisters and wounds that ultramarathoners suffer to their feet. These are people in top shape, with excellent equipment, and they still have injury. Horses aren't people, but it makes perfect sense that beasts run under less than optimal conditions for long periods of time with suffer a great amount.

                        Take care,
                        Tom Craig
                        1st Maine Cavalry
                        Tom Craig

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                        • #57
                          Re: Horse Breed

                          From, The American Eclectic Pratice Of Medicine as applied to the Diseases of Domestic Animals by Nelson N. Titus printed by Baker & Godwin Printers New York 1861.
                          Page 9 [Quote ] The princpal breeds of horses now bred in the United States are the Race Horse, the Arabian, the Morgan, the Canadian, the Norman, the Cleveland Bay, the Conestoga, the Virginia Horse, the Clydesdale, and the Wild or Praire Horse. [ Quote]
                          It goes on to describe the constitution of these various breeds. I am willing to transcribe this work to this forum if desired. I am a slow typer and I only request patience.
                          While I am no expert on this subject I am very interested in this topic. Thanks to all have posted thus far.
                          Chris Fisher
                          [COLOR="Blue"][I]GGGS Pvt Lewis Davenport
                          1st NY Mounted Rifles
                          Enlisted Jan 1864 Discharged Nov 1865[/I][/COLOR]
                          [I][COLOR="SeaGreen"]Member Co[COLOR="DarkGreen"][/COLOR]mpany of Military Historians[/COLOR][/I]

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                          • #58
                            Re: Horse Breed

                            Originally posted by Marylander in Grey View Post
                            It goes on to describe the constitution of these various breeds. I am willing to transcribe this work to this forum if desired. I am a slow typer and I only request patience.
                            Not the same book, but maybe the same descriptions (starting at the very bottom of the page):



                            Hank Trent
                            hanktrent@gmail.com
                            Hank Trent

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                            • #59
                              Re: Horse Breed

                              Hank,
                              Amazing, the books almost read word for word.
                              Thanks for posting this you saved me some typing.
                              Chris Fisher
                              [COLOR="Blue"][I]GGGS Pvt Lewis Davenport
                              1st NY Mounted Rifles
                              Enlisted Jan 1864 Discharged Nov 1865[/I][/COLOR]
                              [I][COLOR="SeaGreen"]Member Co[COLOR="DarkGreen"][/COLOR]mpany of Military Historians[/COLOR][/I]

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                Re: Horse Breed

                                Ok, so what about a Hanoverian Warmblood? The breed is from Germany around 1733, according to a website.
                                Just a private soldier trying to make a difference

                                Patrick Peterson
                                Old wore out Bugler

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