Speaking of interesting saddles

[Old-South]

While at Nash Farm this weekend I met a fellow that rode with a Texas company(don't remember which one) that was riding what I thought was a Jennifer but he said it was a universal pattern (UP) light austrailian saddle. It was shapped like a Jenni but had a solild seat and I believe an iron pommel. He said it was common in the 1850's and used by civilians as well.
Anyone seen a saddle like that or knows more on the subject?
BTW that unit fielded at least 26 horses. Drove a thousand miles! That was impressive!
Newbie wannabe cavalree,

[csabugler]

Re: Speaking of interesting saddles

I'll be interested to see what Ken and others have to say about that saddle.

[Linkstrap]

Re: Speaking of interesting saddles

The UP saddle is still in use here in the UK. This site may prove useful to you:

http://www.militaryhorse.org/upsaddle/index.htm

[Jerry Ross]

Re: Speaking of interesting saddles

Stonewall Jackson had one of those saddles. It is at the VMI museum in Lexington , VA.

[Hank Trent]

Re: Speaking of interesting saddles

Okay. Whew. Did some quick research on this because I was curious about it, and it's confusing.

Looks like the British changed cavalry saddles in 1856, and the new model, designed by a man named Nolan and sometimes called by his name, was the "Universal Wood Arch Saddle," designed for both light and heavy cavalry. Before that, the British light cavalry saddle was the 1805 "light cavalry universal saddle" or Hussar or Hungarian model.

So there were at least two types of British cavalry saddles knocking around at the time of the war, the old Hussar and the new 1856 UP.

This article talks in detail about British saddles in the U.S. at the time of the war, including the 1856 Universal Pattern with a photo. According to that page, the 1856 UP saddles were around, but not as popular as the Hussar, since for one thing, the 1856 UP saddles were new while the Hussars were older and made obsolete by the 1856 model.

A photo at the link above shows Stonewall Jackson's saddle at VMI, which appears to be the older Hussar model.

So then we have lots of questions... was the Texas reenactor riding an 1856 or 1805 model saddle? Why the distinction that he was riding an Australian UP saddle, and not a British one? Were British troops in Australia riding someting different than British troops in Britain or elsewhere, and even if so, were imported army saddles from Australia really more common than saddles from Britain?

Also, was he riding a replica of an 1856 or 1805 model, or a later version that looks similar? As with the McClellan, they were made in different versions and are still made today, but they changed over time.

In addition to the link that Jim Smith posted, scroll down here to the paragraph beginning "Standard issue saddle used by British and Australian mounted..." for a photo of a 1912 UP saddle, in use up to 1941. It doesn't much resemble the photo of the 1856 UP saddle at the third link above, nor the 1805 Hussar at the second link above, though if you squint real hard, it looks more like the Hussar than, say, what you could buy at your local tack shop.

Hank Trent
hanktrent@gmail.com

[Old-South]

Re: Speaking of interesting saddles

Ok, I did some backtracking and recollecting and research. The Company was the 3rd Texas. They have their own website(Maybe even a few members of this forum). The gentlemen I spoke with was a very nice chap from Canada, I remember now that it was an 1856 pattern and it was ORIGINAL! He actually had 2 of them.
Being new to this, I thought he did a stellear job of researching that saddle and further using it for his impression. I like [I]different[I] and that was different!
Again I was very impressed that so many horses made such a long trip. Cudos!

Jeff

[Hank Trent]

Re: Speaking of interesting saddles

The gentlemen I spoke with was a very nice chap from Canada, I remember now that it was an 1856 pattern and it was ORIGINAL! He actually had 2 of them.

Hmm... according to the website I linked above, http://www.confederatesaddles.com/br...equipment.html :

Today they are extremely rare--only four are known to survive.

And this fellow owns half of them, and he was riding one of them.

Something does not compute.

Hank Trent
hanktrent@gmail.com

[Old-South]

Re: Speaking of interesting saddles

I could be wrong. I am not an expert and my memory ....... what was I about to say? They could be later versions. I had never seen one before and I forgot to take any pictures.

[Old-South]

Re: Speaking of interesting saddles

My wife just chimed in and told me the guy said that only one was an original. Still.......

[Old-South]

Re: Speaking of interesting saddles

Here is the link to their website. Maybe someone could get in touch with the guy. Probably the only Canadian in the bunch eh?

http://www.3rdtexascavalry.org/

[Hank Trent]

Re: Speaking of interesting saddles

I don't know nothing but what I read on the internets, and had never heard the name UP saddle before, which is why I was curious to look it up a bit. So I'm not speaking from experience, and can't offer anything more than links to articles/books which are only as trustworthy as far as one wants to trust them.

But my gut feeling says that if someone was riding an "original," it was either a 1912 or other later pattern "original," or redone with older-style repro leathers on a later-model tree, or perhaps at most was completely redone with only an original 1856 tree inside. But that's just my gut feeling.

And still... why Australian? Again, my gut feeling would be that's where he bought it today, not where people were typically getting them in 186x, and it's a surplus cavalry saddle from Australia that's a later UP model, just like one can buy later model McClellans relatively inexpensively today in the US, in rideable condition.

But I dunno. It would be good to hear more.

If he's actually riding an original 1856 saddle with the original leather in a condition excellent enough to be safe to ride, may I join all the world's museum curators and preservationists to ask him to please stop, and purchase a repro instead? :)

Hank Trent
hanktrent@gmail.com

[RJSamp]

Re: Speaking of interesting saddles

While at Nash Farm this weekend I met a fellow that rode with a Texas company(don't remember which one) that was riding what I thought was a Jennifer but he said it was a universal pattern (UP) light austrailian saddle. It was shapped like a Jenni but had a solild seat and I believe an iron pommel. He said it was common in the 1850's and used by civilians as well.
Anyone seen a saddle like that or knows more on the subject?
BTW that unit fielded at least 26 horses. Drove a thousand miles! That was impressive!
Newbie wannabe cavalree,

Terry's Texas Rangers

[Ken Knopp]

Re: Speaking of interesting saddles

Gents,
With all due respect to the gentlemen I would bet next months rent that he was NOT riding a 1856 Universal nor a Hussars pattern that would have typically been found in the South during the war (not even a reproduction as NO ONE makes them....let alone an original). I refer everyone to my article posted on my web site for more information. Here is a direct link...

http://confederatesaddles.com/cswp/?p=394

In very brief summary, The saddles imported (for sale to Southern officers) into the South at the time were generally of two patterns. The early 1850's Hussars pattern (used in the Crimean War) and such as that was owned by Stonewall Jackson. The other, the "wooden arch" 1856 UP (the first true British UP pattern) was also imported and used by the South. These are both exceedingly rare saddles.
Many versions of the UP were made after the war by the Brits (predominately steel arch patterns) and many of these are still found (and used) today but rarely, I say again RARELY, are the 1856 patterns found. I know now of about a dozen or so "out there". I have studied, owned, handled and photographed several of both of these saddle patterns (see my web site for lots of photographs) for many years. They are trully interesting saddles.
Though I cannot say for sure, what our friend is far more likely to have been riding last weekend was a WWI pattern British UP - at totally INCORRECT saddle for our period.
Simply put, it is akin to one of us riding an obvious fully rigged M1904 into the field at a C.W. event (actually worse).

Ken R Knopp

[English Doc]

Re: Speaking of interesting saddles

At the time (185x), Australia was a relatively 'new' British Colony (And a mainly penal one at that!) so military equipage and other items needed for its subsistance, was supplied by and from Britain. I suspect that the 'Australian UP saddle' is/was a modern item.

As a side note - Captain Louis Edward Nolan was credited with the UP saddle. He wrote two widely translated and raved books of instruction 'The Training of Cavalry Remount Horses: A New System' and 'Cavalry: It's History and Tactics'. He also was the advocate of training horses with kindness. He was/is also the Officer alledged to have been the reason for the Infamous Charge of the Light Brigade at Balaklava in 1854.

So, to see him referred to simply as 'a man named Nolan' was equivalent to saying there was a brief unpleasentness between 1861 -65!:wink_smil

[Hank Trent]

Re: Speaking of interesting saddles

Thank you gentlemen, who actually know what you're talking about, for clarifying all this and putting it in context. Naturally, I stand with Ken Knopp in disbelieving the man was riding what was claimed, and would be very curious if someone traces the claim back to its source to see how this got started. What did/does the fellow actually say about his saddle? How did it get misinterpreted (if it did)?

Being new to this, I thought he did a stellear job of researching that saddle and further using it for his impression. I like [i]different[i] and that was different!

All I can say is, folks, when you hear reenactors claim extraordinary stuff, be skeptical. If somebody like me who knows nothing about a topic can spend a few minutes on google and spew out some conclusions that aren't totally ripped apart by people who live and breathe this stuff, anybody can.

As a side note, it took me about five minutes of looking at small pictures of Hussar saddles that weren't on horses, before I noticed which end the stirrup leathers were hung from, and realized that no, it wasn't a McClellan-style saddle with a horn. :D

Hank Trent
hanktrent@gmail.com