Speaking of interesting saddles

[csabugler]

Re: Speaking of interesting saddles

Easy boys, Jeff's a new guy!
I personally would not dream of riding an original 1850's anything saddle at any event, much less a silly one like BoA. I rode my new T Smith Texas. An original of such rare vintage should be preserved, imho.
Now on that note, I have an older T Smith Muley Morgan that I bought used 5 years ago and have probably put maybe 100 days riding on it myself. It is well worn and a fine looking living history piece.
Last year at a small LH program, a fellow Critter with good knowledge of saddles was speaking to a crowd of people and said it was an original, period saddle. Not wanting to upstage a pard, I let it go and corrected him aside later. My point is that mistakes and misinformation occur in honest ways.
So maybe the fella was just incorrect.
At least he wasn't on a modern western saddle...

[Ken Knopp]

Re: Speaking of interesting saddles

I am sorry if I appeared harsh in my reply. It was not meant so. My apologies to all! Just trying to point out some of the realities- at least as far as we understand them. Actually, this has been a very good thread as it provides a good opportunity for revisiting the story of the British saddles the Confederacy used.
However, I would also like to take this opportunity to add one educated theory of mine. The aforementioned British saddles were apparently the most common "military" types the South imported. Nevertheless, it has long been my contention (without any documentation) that the South likely also imported at least some "English" saddles. By that I mean the common flat English saddles of the period. By the way, they did not differ all that much from our common perception of English saddles of the period and, even those today.
I cannot back this up with anything other than intuition but it just makes sense to me. The South needed saddles for sale to officers and, they were already quite familiar with these patterns as they were still widely popular and available during that period (especially in the eastern South). I also note further attraction Southerners likely had for them as engendered by their usage in the Crimean war by British officers. See below. Many other "militarized" variations of these were used during the Crimean war but their nearly identical appearances to common English saddles is striking. In my humble opinion some of these were likely imported. Anyway, just my own person opinion and thoughts.


Ken R Knopp

https://www.confederatesaddles.com

PS: Is it just me or does it seem to you fellas that the Honorable Major Cathcart (3rd from left) may have been an ancestor of Lt Mark Choate of the 7th Tennessee? At least the resemblance is there.

[Old-South]

Re: Speaking of interesting saddles

Gentlemen,
I have made contact with the Texan in question. He is out of town at this time but will send me all the info on his saddle come Monday when he returns. I will forward his response to this thread.
Ken,
No offense taken.
YOS,
Jeff

[Hank Trent]

Re: Speaking of interesting saddles

Gentlemen,
I have made contact with the Texan in question. He is out of town at this time but will send me all the info on his saddle come Monday when he returns. I will forward his response to this thread.
Ken,
No offense taken.
YOS,
Jeff

Thank you! From a reenactor historical-interpretation viewpoint, I'm very curious to see what all this is about.

Hank Trent
hanktrent@gmail.com

[Mark Choate]

Re: Speaking of interesting saddles

Ken,

Was it Major Cathcart's striking good looks or his overall noble bearing that caused you to think he was my ancestor??

Must have been one or the other as there would be no way for you to know that he had my wit and charm just from the photo.

Mark Choate
7th TN

[Ken Knopp]

Re: Speaking of interesting saddles

Mark, well, no, ah, actually it was the fact he could not get his big-a__ foot into the stirrup!
Also, by his posture and the look on his face he must be suffering from hemmoroids but I attribute that more to environmental factors rather than genetic.....unless,.... Naw! nevermind, I don't really want to know!

Ken R Knopp

[csabugler]

Re: Speaking of interesting saddles

Well if this were on the "Cock Ring" social group or a personal message I would offer a possible explanation for Mark's apparent discomfort/ relationship as Ken mentioned, but I already got in trouble here this week so will let your imaginations do the rest.
That's a 'peculiar" looking horse in the center, the crimean shot, and the Major looks like MC on any horse less than about 16/2 hands. :D

[Mark Choate]

Re: Speaking of interesting saddles

Well, Pete, having heard you "tee off" where no restrictions exist, I know that I speak for all when I say "thank goodness we are on a family rated thread." HA!

Too bad that you and Ken don't have dashing examples of mounted troopers that folks point out "your" resemblances to. Oh well, we all can't be "rock stars."

To the rest of the readers, I apologize for Ken and Pete diverting the spine-tingling discussion away from it's original direction.

Mark C.
7th Tn.

[Ken Knopp]

Re: Speaking of interesting saddles

Gents, sorry, just having a little fun here in the midst of a useful thread. Normally, I would not do this but Mark has a great, self depreciating sense of humor which makes it fun to banter with him. He and I are good friends- he knows how much respect and admiration I have for what he does in his leadership role.
This thread has been good. Like Hank I would be curious to find out just what the fella at Nash Farm was riding. Also can anyone tell us what unit “fielded at least 26 horses” and “drove a thousand miles”? Was that Terry’s? That has me curious too. Jeff you keep posting. Your questions and comments are always welcome.
Here are a few photos of the two 1850's era British saddles that the South generally imported. As I noted earlier, I tend to believe other types such as common English patterns were also imported. As an aside in fact, I know Caleb Huse (CS Ordnance Purchaser in England during the war) wanted to have McClellans made there. I am not sure how successful he was. Folks have speculated and tried for years to make the case for different artifacts as this "British-made McClellan" saddle but for now, we can only imagine what they would look like.

Photo #1 is a Capt Morgan’s British “Light Cavalry” Hussars saddle. Morgan was with the 17th lancers at the Balakava- Charge of the Light Brigade (Crimean War). Very few of these around. This one is in England.

Photo #2: T.J. Jackson’s similar saddle (mounted on Lil Sorrel) at the VMI Museum, Lexington Va.. This saddle was a gift to him by English friends in early 1863.

Photo #3: A recently found 1856 British UP with its distinctive cantle still intact (harder to find). English private collection.

Ken R Knopp

[Ken Knopp]

Re: Speaking of interesting saddles

Patrick, here are a few more shots of European horses from the Crimean War. I have seen dozens of these photos (the first war ever photographed) and the horses range widely from very nice looking (even by today's standards) to very "peculiar". Note the wide variations of saddlery. Some using the Hussar's saddles.

Ken R Knopp

[English Doc]

Re: Speaking of interesting saddles

Patrick, here are a few more shots of European horses from the Crimean War. I have seen dozens of these photos (the first war ever photographed) and the horses range widely from very nice looking (even by today's standards) to very "peculiar". Note the wide variations of saddlery. Some using the Hussar's saddles.

Ken R Knopp

The command incompetence during the Crimean campaign was awful. After the 'Charge', and during the winter, the cavalry were positioned such that as the Russian winter set in, they (horses) went from half rations to 'two handfulls of forage a day' to nothing. Pvt Mitchell of the 13th Dragoons noted ' When a horse dropped dead in the lines, others that could reach it would gnaw the hair off its skin. Saddlery, blankets, ropes and picket pegs all were eaten by them, and we had to be careful when going near them, or they would seize us by the beard and whiskers for the same purpose.' This was also noted and written about by several officers, but I don't have my materials to hand for quotes. Suffice to say, the winter left the Light Brigade with just 10% of the horses it had left England with - the 13th Dragoons had only 12 of its original 250 mounts.

Images:

#1 - Ass. Surgeon Henry Wilkins, 11th Hussars

#2 - Light Brigade Trooper

#3 - Sir Briggs Mount of Capt. Godfrey Morgan (later Lord Tredegar) Used in the 'charge'

[Old-South]

Re: Speaking of interesting saddles

Ken,
It was the 3rd Texas. The fellow's name was Gordon Lentz and he lives in Houston. Here is their link.

http://www.3rdtexascavalry.org/

Mr. Lentz will send me the info the first of the week when he gets back in town,
Regards,

[csabugler]

Re: Speaking of interesting saddles

FRom their site


No Horses, No Problem

Many members of the 3rd Texas Cavalry do not own or ride horses. Even if you don’t own a horse you can still be a member of our group and participate in the battles as “Dismounted” Cavalry.

So did they field 26 horses, or 26 "gender non-descript cavalry reenactor type persons"?


Patrick

[MustangGray]

Re: Speaking of interesting saddles

Mr. Knopp,

Hate to do this, but the Mexican American War was the first war to be "photographed" to my knowledge. Back to the saddles in question... I've always liked the look of them, wish I had a reason to have one!

SMc

[csabugler]

Re: Speaking of interesting saddles

Hey Ken, the Woodford and Lilly pics have similar looking gear at the pommels. look sorta like bowling pins hanging upside down..:D

Are those pommell holsters, or just coincindental arrangements of blankets?