Speaking of interesting saddles

[Old-South]

Re: Speaking of interesting saddles

Pete,
I counted 26 horses tied to their picket line. I did see a couple of females in their ranks. There could have been a couple more horse that were being used at the time I counted them.
Jeff

[csabugler]

Re: Speaking of interesting saddles

Who were you with at BoA? Did I know you were coming up there? I'da looked you up and let you ride Woodrow some. He's a fine ride when there's no guns going off...
During the fight is another story.

[PogueMahone]

Re: Speaking of interesting saddles

Hey Ken, the Woodford and Lilly pics have similar looking gear at the pommels. look sorta like bowling pins hanging upside down..:D

Are those pommell holsters, or just coincindental arrangements of blankets?

I thought they looked like dandy cup holders!

[Mike Ventura]

Re: Speaking of interesting saddles

From the photos and info on their site, I wouldn't put the 3rd Texas Cav in the "authentic" end of the spectrum. That doesn't mean that it doesn't "work" for them, it just wouldn't "work" for most of us on this forum.

As someone posted above, I'm sure that some of the 8th Texas Cav (Terry's Texas Rangers) were with the group. "Terry's" travel and has been known to come east for events.

As s historical note. the original 3rd Texas Cav was under Sul Ross and opposed Kilpatrick's Raid on the Macon (Rail) Road in August 1864, fighting on some of the very ground that Nash Farm now occupies.

[Old-South]

Re: Speaking of interesting saddles

Ok, This is what I found out about the mystery saddle. Please don't kill the messenger, I an simply relaying what was told to me by the owner himself.
He said that it is an original British UP saddle.

Ken,
He even referenced it with an excerpt from your book regarding British saddles use by the Confederacy.

Pete,
I fell in with the 47th Ga. I march with them whenever I do an event in Georgia(Chickamauga, Nash Farm, Resaca, etc.) Great bunch of guys!

Well folks, is this gentleman committing a high crime against history by using the saddle or is it a more common saddle? I would hate to take a chance on damaging ANYTHING that old. It looked like it had been recovered as it still had a good shine on it. I will see if he can send me a picture of it.

G'day!

[Hank Trent]

Re: Speaking of interesting saddles

Ok, This is what I found out about the mystery saddle. Please don't kill the messenger, I an simply relaying what was told to me by the owner himself.
He said that it is an original British UP saddle.

Hate to say it, but there are still a couple different interpretations of that. Did he say it was original to 1856, or just "original" to the real British cavalry?

I used to know some fellows who rode "original" McClellans from the real U.S. cavalry... made circa 1930. I wouldn't be surprised at all if there are some similar Australian or British saddles still around from that era in good rideable condition.

I'll defer to Ken and everybody else as to how rare or common a recovered 1856 UP tree would be, and/or if a later-model tree could be recovered to look like an 1856 saddle, if either of those turn out to be the answer.

Hank Trent
hanktrent@gmail.com

[Old-South]

Re: Speaking of interesting saddles

His direct comment was "original saddle". I can only assume it is an 1856 original.

[Ken Knopp]

Re: Speaking of interesting saddles

Jeff,

Thank you for your diligent pursuit of this saddle and answers to our questions! You are commended for your efforts. It has made for some fun and good educational exchanges here.
First, please let me point out again that a UP1856 and the 1850's Light cavalry Hussars saddles are two different saddles entirely. Please see the photos I previously posted. As one can see a UP1856 looks nothing like the 1850's Hussars saddle. It is also important to understand that the UP saddles evolved quite a bit during the 19th and early 20th centuries much like our McClellan did. In fact, it is quite fascinating to see the similarities.
Now, I am not at all positioning my self here as an expert or even rudimentarily knowledgeable about UP saddle lineage. While I have studied the British saddlery and equipment of the 1850's and 1860s as they relate to Confederate imports I am not very well versed on what came after this time. Nevertheless as I understand it, after the UP1856 (the first wooden arch frame) saddle came variations of that (starting about 1870) until the UP1890 (the first steel arch saddle), then the UP1902 then the UP1912. The last three all steel arch saddles (I enclose some photos below). However, variations of manufacture and their intricacies (like our McClellan) were very, very prevalent including but not limited to versions for British Yeomanry; artillery patterns; Canadian Colonial and even variations of Canadian and Indian manufacture. Now please, do not hold me to any of this as it is not my area. Others are certainly far more qualified to discuss it than myself. I only bring it up to illustrate the point that the 3rd Texas gentleman's saddle quite likely IS an "original", but, of what pattern and manufacture?
Jeff, one of your original posts said something about a "steel" tree which suggests to me that it was quite likely a variation of the UP1890, or, possibly a 1902 or maybe even the 1912. “All” of them incorrect for our period (even the wooden arch UP1870 is incorrect). For example, the steel arch UP patterns would be much akin to one of us riding a M1904 “original” McClellan onto the field. Yes, it is a McClellan but NOT an M1859. My supposition is that knowing the patterns and extreme scarcities (not to mention fragility) of the 1850's - 1860's period Brit. saddlery as well as I do, I sincerely doubt it is one of these early saddles. If it is, I would LOVE to see it!
For those that want to see a sample of the type saddles imported by the Confederacy you could try the following museums. For the UP1856, you could go to the Stonewall Jackson headquarters museum in Winchester Va. Gen. Turner Ashby apparently owned one early in the war. The cantle is cut down but otherwise it is a nice surviving example. I am not aware of any others in museums in this country but several- maybe 4 or 5 are in private collections (I used to own one myself). Beyond a few more in England and Australia they are nearly extinct.
For an 1850's Hussar's saddle, one could then go down (up?) the pike to the VMI Museum at Lexington Va. to see Stonewall Jackson's on his Lil Sorrel. A superb version! Again, a few more are in private collections in this country but not many. More in England though.
For A LOT MORE information on these saddles go to this site

http://www.militaryhorse.org/

PHOTOS: Left to right....

1. 1870's UP used through the 90's
2. Brit Trooper with and 1856 Pattern
3. UP1902
4. UP1912 (Austrialian manufacture)

* Like our McCellans, to the untrained eye they all look alike!

Ken R Knopp

[csabugler]

Re: Speaking of interesting saddles

On the 1856 Brit trooper version, the cantel looks like a damn big ole air spoiler on the back of a 1998 Plymouth Neon. LOL
The cantels seem to quite different on each of them

The 1902 girth , and maybe the 1912, is rigged like my girl friend's modern english saddle. with 2 straps and buckles.

[Mark Choate]

Re: Speaking of interesting saddles

What a fantastic and educational thread this has become! Where else can you be exposed to so much discussion and learn so much?

As I look at these various incarnations of saddles with the heavy English influence and how they evolved into saddles that we are more familiar with from the WBTS, etc. it seems that very much of what we see and use in our area of interest is a blend of English influence and Mexican influence. Granted, that may be an oversimplification of the process, but I'll toss it out there for comment.

Another question that I have is when do we see the emergence of the first rawhide covered saddle trees? It seems that most early work is leather covered which of course makes sense if you consider that the war created a shortage of leather availability.

I have a book on the "cavalry" of the Roman legions and a drawing of an old roman saddle.........doesn't resemble much of anything that we are accustom to. Actually, with the leg hooks it reminded me more of a ladies side-saddle. The purpose being that one could "hook" ones legs in for support while both hands were free for battle, archery, etc.

Sorry if I have taken this a bit off of it's original track.

Again, thanks for this thread and the contributions.

Mark Choate,
7th TN. Cav.

[English Doc]

Re: Speaking of interesting saddles

On the 1856 Brit trooper version, the cantel looks like a damn big ole air spoiler on the back of a 1998 Plymouth Neon. LOL

..Helps with 'charge!' speed! :wink_smil

[English Doc]

Re: Speaking of interesting saddles

Found this being sold here in England today (Price on Application!)

It has been listed as '1865 or 1890 UP saddle' (broad spectrum description!)

Apart from being put together 'a la Hank Trent' (Saddle pockets away from the 'horn' end!);), the amount of silver lions and oak leaves on the thing would probably make it a ceremonial item rather than a field item (IMHO)

[Outrider]

Re: Speaking of interesting saddles

Wow thats pretty cool. I have often wondered how one of those saddles would ride. They kinda look to me like it would sit you sort of higher up than a Mac or Texas or anything else I am used to as opposed to a "close contact" sort of seat.

[Old-South]

Re: Speaking of interesting saddles

Weren't the Universal Pattern saddles the first suspended seat saddles?

[Outrider]

Re: Speaking of interesting saddles

Not sure if they were the first but they are that definitely.