Jennifer saddles

[1st Maine Trooper]

Folks,
For your viewing pleasure, some photos of the two Jenifer's in the NPS collection at Gettysburg taken 12/11/09. These are the first of roughly 150 photos taken. They can be found at:

http://gallery.me.com/dtmyrick/100099

Dave Myrick

[Mark Choate]

Re: Jennifer saddles

Dave,

Thanks a lot for these wonderful photos of a very "under-rated" saddle (IMHO). I have been a fan of the Jenifer (especially the skeleton rigged versions) for many years and I don't think we see them enough in our hobby, given their exposure during the war.

A couple of questions if I may:

In photos 0019, 0025 and 0026 the very small piece of skirting is shown attached to the body of the tree. It appears to be attached by flat screws. Am I seeing that correctly? And if I am, does it appear to be a make-shift repair or the original intent? Also, one of the iron stirrups are shown in photo 0015. Do you know if that was originally on that saddle or added later (maybe post war even).

You may not have any of these answers, but I would appreciate anything that you may be able to pass on.

Again, great job and thanks,

Mark

[1st Maine Trooper]

Re: Jennifer saddles

Mark,
That is not skirting but rather a safe behind the English girth strap. No they are not screws rather iron nails. There were no screws on that saddle that I can recall what so ever.

In regards to the stirrups, I can only make assumptions as there is hard provenance for either saddle. I will say that both stirrups match so if they were added post war, they were added as a pair.

Dave Myrick

[Mark Choate]

Re: Jennifer saddles

Dave,

Thanks for the info and the photos.

Mark

[Ken Knopp]

Re: Jennifer saddles

WOW DAVE!! Great photos!! Nice job! May I make a couple of comments?

These two saddles have been in storage at GMP for many years. I am not aware they have ever been on display (maybe so). I examined and photographed these two about 10-12 years ago for my book and they can be found there on page 67. At the time they were thought to be two of only a handful of Jenifers but since then many more have surfaced. Great to see them again as they are excellent, representative examples!
Although housed at the GMP, I am very doubtful they are Gettysburg "pick-ups". Many items were donated after the war (and still are). The pattern of at least one of them exhibit a post Gettysburg battle addition (the underpadding -see below). These excellent photos bring out some great detail!

- Both are of what the CS Ordnance Dept called the "New Jenifer" pattern. Quite different (pommel at least) from Jenifer's "patent" pattern. One is a "Skeleton Jenifer" and the other likely an officer's saddle (though not confirmed).
- Both were "English" rigged as noted in Dave and Mark's posts.
-The square-top Federal type wood stirrups (formerly with hoods) may or may not be of CS manufacture. The iron (or brass?) stirrups are "period" but have a French type transom slot.
- The underpadding was an "add on" to the Jenifer pattern (to prevent sore back horses) and not ordered until just a couple of weeks before the G-burg campaign so very unlikely to have any of those pattern at the battle. Pg 70
- Sitrrup straps on one of them is a post manufacture (and likley post war) addition due to its different leather and use of rivets.
- Pattern of skirting is interesting. Very wide and broad so not late war.
- The brass rings are interesting. Not normally associated with trooper's saddles but then, not exclusive to officer's either.
- The "clipped corner" mortice plates are Richmond Arsenal products. They are made entirely of zinc or, brass with a heavy zinc content as noted by the silver color.

Dave, super great to see these posted here. THANK YOU!!! Can you elaborate on how you got the photos? Did you take them?

When I handled these saddles and took my photos back in the late nineties it was done through the kind courtesy of John and Jody Nolan. At the time, Jody was working as a volunteer and GMP. She got me in with Mike Vice who while a bit reluctant at first, turned out to be very helpful and a very good friend to my research efforts. If you ever go back, ask to see their bit collection. They literally have several large boxes of miscellaneous Federal (dozens of them), CS and civilian bits. I photographed dozens of them over two sittings, some of which ended up in my book. Also, not well known is that they have alot of other "stuff" including other saddles, alot of stirrups, couple of bridles, a few uniforms, hats, etc. etc. Wish I could remember all of the other things I saw. Most never will see the light of day.
Again, please continue and thank you!!


PS: Keep an eye out on my web site.....I am adding alot of artifact photos this weekend and ALOT more really great "stuff" for sale very soon.

Ken R Knopp
Approved Vendor and....."still" the Cav Forum Moderator

https://www.confederatesaddles.com

[1st Maine Trooper]

Re: Jennifer saddles

Ken,
Yes I took this batch of photos. The ones that are forthcoming were taken by my dad. We examined these two saddles on December 11th.

I have a question and some observations (ok probably a few). Based on the level of attention to detail and quality of construction, I made the assumption that the saddle with the pad is an officer's saddle. How common would it have been to have a leather covered trooper's saddle? That seems a great expense to go to in order outfit a simple trooper especially for the cash strapped CS government. What do you think of the iron staple in the keeper of the stirrup straps with the iron stirrups, post war add on?

The "skeleton" rigged saddle at one point had skirts as evidenced by the headless nails left in the tree.

The rivets in the stirrup straps serve to hold the ends together as the strap had broken.

The metal stirrups are magnetic, therefore iron.

Both saddles are said to have come from the Rosensteel collection.

Dave Myrick

[1st Maine Trooper]

Re: Jennifer saddles

Additional photos are now up and can be viewed at:

http://gallery.me.com/dtmyrick/100114

http://gallery.me.com/dtmyrick/100124

Hopefully these will shed some more light and answer some more questions.

Dave Myrick

[Mike Ventura]

Re: Jennifer saddles

As I look at these photos, I am impressed with the thickness of the leather of the rigging, particularly the stirrup straps. Those who have been on this forum for a few years will recall several discussions 5-6-7 years ago involving modern repro makers and the fact that most repros come with stirrup straps and other rigging that is thicker than what we associated with the originals.

There used to be an argument that Doug Kidd's hand sewn models were inaccurate as the rigging was too thick, Yet, the photos and measurements seem to look more the the rigging that Doug and some other repro makers.

Your thoughts?

[Mark Choate]

Re: Jennifer saddles

Dave........What a visual feast!

This definitely answered some questions for me and triggered a few more as well. In shots 0099 - 0104 of the second link, is that copper wire holding that wooden stirrup together? It was wrapped all around and surprising that it held given the duty of the item.

Mike, I too was impressed by the thickness of the leather (especially on the stirrup leathers). Construction would have been early war on these so perhaps the shortages of war had not yet hit as hard and thicker leather was used (another "re-enactorism debunked). Also, did you notice the lack of consistency with the distance between the punched holes in the stirrup leathers? Great camera work, Dave.

Given the angle of the bars, those trees would not have sat well on the modern quarter-horse backs. Just another reason to select high-withered gaited horses (IMHO :D).

Dave, not sure how you got the permission to do all of this, but congrats on a documentation job well done. Really was a treat for the eyes and much enjoyed.

Mark

[1st Maine Trooper]

Re: Jennifer saddles

I'm glad you all have enjoyed the photos. To clarify, the stirrup straps are 8 ounce leather and the girth billets are 12 ounce leather. The exact dimensions are as follows:
Stirrup strap: 60"x7/8"x1/8" with two sewn keepers and 1" iron roller buckle.
Girth billet:1 5/8"x13 1/2"x3/16".

For the uninformed, leather thickness is measured in ounces. With one ounce equal to 1/64th of an inch. Therefore, 8 ounce leather is 8/64ths or 1/8".

Of curious note is the large stitching @ 5 stitches per inch.

Mark, to answer your question as to how, all I did was ask and yes that is copper wire holding the stirrups together. They really did see a tremendous amount of both wear and abuse!

Mike, in answer to the issue you brought up with regards to Doug Kidd's leather, on every piece of tack that I have examined that he has made, the leather used was too thick for the application.

Dave Myrick

[Mark Choate]

Re: Jennifer saddles

Dave,

The clarification on the leather weight was helpful.

I would imagine that there were established specs for the various components of the Federal saddles (Mac, Grimsley, etc.) but were there established specs for the weight tolerances on the CS saddles? Perhaps there was for the Jenifer, but I would be surprised if there were for the myriad of saddles seen in the ranks.

Ken, do you know if this was the case?

thx,
Mark

[Ken Knopp]

Re: Jennifer saddles

Mark, Good Question!! The short answer is...."yes", there were specs (the same as in Federal regs as the CS Ord. Dept copied their ordnance manual or, the "former" Fed Ord. officers, now Confederate arsenal commanders, manufactured items to the best of their abilites from their learned experiences ) but in practice "no". From surviving correspondence it is clear that within reason, they made what they could with what they had. In other words, while they tried for the ordnance guidelines they would often replace heavier or lighter weights of leather when necessary, mix and matched leather pieces and colors of black, russet and imported English leather as the urgency of needs dictated and, substitute other materials too. To make matters more inconsistent, the acceptance of less than quality leather from tanners and finshed pieces from contractors was very common. In summary, the only constant was inconsistency.
I am not convinced that these stirrup leathers are original to the saddle. For me, they do not show the same age cracking, wear and discoloration as the other leather. The use of the rivets bothers me too. The buckle is OK (kinda) but NOT the brass billet keepers. It "smells" post war commercial to me. I admit I could be wrong but these things bother me.
On the other hand, I concur about the duplicity of leather used on CS saddles and.....in our ranks today. Again, from my observations there are few hard rules about about CS leather horse equipment manufacturing.

Ken R Knopp

[Mark Choate]

Re: Jennifer saddles

Thanks Ken,

That is about what I expected would be the answer.

Mark