Observations of ANV cavalry.....

[Mike Ventura]

Re: Observations of ANV cavalry.....

I think Tom has brought up a good discussion point. IF, we as "authentic reenactors," are to be bound by the historical record, we should not disregard those instances that run counter to the current collective thinking.

Otherwise, we are creating our own "reenactorisms."

[Mark Choate]

Re: Observations of ANV cavalry.....

Hear, Hear, and kudos to you Tom for bringing this up! (Also to you, Mike for echoing it).

We are so dog-gone afraid of being labeled that we run away in panic from tons of stuff (ie. Remington revolvers, breast straps, how the cork in the canteen is attached, etc., etc., etc.). Now, I do realize that while some of these things were relatively rare and we do not want them in heavy numbers, I think that our thrust should be in education within the unit that there be a minimal number represented rather than all possibilities being negated.

There are plenty of truly non-authentic things to deal with without throwing the baby-out-with-the-bathwater. Like Mike said, we can create "our own reenactorisms."

Well done gentlemen. Also, I learned a new word........"farbocity." :D

thx,
Mark

[Old-South]

Re: Observations of ANV cavalry.....

As long as we can support our impression with actual facts there should be no arguement. Just as long as it doesn't turn into an inquisition at every event.

[Lance Stifle]

Re: Observations of ANV cavalry.....

Hello Tom
I've always wondered how the hell did those troopers draw a sabre slung along and under the saddle skirt.

Surely it would have to be rubbing point on the mount as well.

The standard practice for mounted infantry (not issued swords until 1917) and earlier cavalry units over here was to hang the sword vertically from a specially designed frog arrangement sewn onto the Horseshoe wallet mounted on the rear near side of the UP saddle.

"Farbocity"...I like it! Is Farb short for "Farbecians"? (A strange lost tribe from the wilderness of Fabia.)

Yeah, I have got the impression that farbie bashing is something of favourite pastime over where you are, although I can understand the frustration some of you would feel with it all.

I don't mean to assault you all with references, it's just that I was extremely fortunate to inherit some old books from my grandfather and have had the opportunity over to build up a large library of often out of print references.
It helps immensely if you have maintain a wish list with collectable book outlets and deceased estate auctioneers.

I enjoy the research, but I enjoy the mounted work more.

All the best
Kim

Ken,

Great stuff!! Thanks for posting it.

I find the reaction to the sabre question to be a funny, but not uncommon one. I have no expertise at all in CS anything, but there is a growing body of evidence that in the second half of the war that Eastern Federal cavalry frequently mounted their sabres on their saddles. John Tobey has uncovered numerous quotes from eyewitness accounts of the men attaching their sabres that way.

In spite of that, there is a sort of knee jerk reaction about even discussing the practice for fear of being labled a farb, a yahoo, or what have you. This problem isn't limited to this issue, or to cavalry, but is a vice of this side of reenacting; essentially an over correction of past farbocity buy going way out of the way to avoid any connection to past impressions. If we are going to have the most accurate impressions possible, we have to look at all of the evidence and do what it tells us was common.

The citation about hats is similar. Years ago it was the fashion that every CS reenactor had some sort of hat cord, decoration, folded up side etc. Now it is the complete opposite, and I have even seen two events where any hat decoration was completely banned. From that quotation it would seem like we ought to be somewhere in the middle of the two extremes.

So I say that there is nothing too dangerous to talk about so long as our motivation is an accurate depiction of what happened in the period!

Merry Christmas!
Tom Craig
1st Maine Cavalry

[Tom Craig]

Re: Observations of ANV cavalry.....

Hey All,

I think I actually may be able to claim credit for coining the term "farbocity" as I have never heard anyone else use it...but by all means feel free to pass it on! :D

Kim, to your point about drawing the sabre and rubbing: over the past two seasons the 1st Maine has done some experimental archeology on the practice (at events where it would be historically accurate). The big catch is that there are lots of references to it being done, but very little evidence of how it was accomplished. There is one picture, if memory serves me right it is from the Cold Harbor timeframe that shows a sabre slung on a saddle, but there is debate about if that slung sabre was a "permanent" attachment or a belt draped over the saddle.

Anyway, we've had some of the guys try various methods of attaching the sabre with all generally favorable results. Some have tried hanging it from the front of the saddle in a verticle fashion, which worked okay. Most have found the best results with the sabre generally horizontal and either slung from straps from the pommel and cantle, or most often run along under the quarterstraps/billet.

With the latter arrangement drawing isn't too much of an effort (not as quick as on the belt) but doesn't seem to cause any problem. Returning the thing seems to be a little more trouble, but that is always the case where ever it is slung. We have had no issues whatsoever with rubs on the horse, and the guys report that once it's in the right place, that it is comfortable.

As an aside, John Tobey has a number of original belts and pieces of belts in his collection. Several of them have additional holes in the sabre hanging straps that happen to line up very well with the saddle in terms of hanging from the pommel and cantle lenghtwise along the horse. Certainly not proof of anything, but interesting.

John is unfortunately occupied with "real life" these days and isn't on here too much, but perhaps Andy German can chime in with some citations about the whole thing. I have a few, but they are pretty general. Crowninshield in the 1st MA regimental talks about it, as does Sidney Morris Davis in his book "Common Soldier, Uncommon War" (awesome book by the way).

Take care,
Tom Craig
1st Maine Cavalry

[CJSchumacher]

Re: Observations of ANV cavalry.....

Just to add to Tom's aside, I wanted to highlight the find I made a while ago of some mounted troopers waiting in column. Its from a photo taken at Charles City Court House, Virginia, in June 1864. To my knowledge, this is the only known wartime photo of a mounted trooper with the saber attached to the saddle. Rarity...sure seems that way, but it DID occur.

Charles City Court House, Va. Rear view of the courthouse

O'Sullivan, Timothy H., 1840-1882, photographer.

CREATED/PUBLISHED
1864 June 13.

SUMMARY
Photograph from the main eastern theater of war, Grant's Wilderness Campaign, May-June 1864.

http://memory.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/.../~ammem_rway::

[Tom Craig]

Re: Observations of ANV cavalry.....

Chris,

Thanks for reposting that picture. That was the one that I was thinking of. I had confused it in my mind with a photo taken in a similar setting and time frame that shows several horses tied up in front of the building, with gear on the saddles.

As Chris states, this is the only photo that either of us know of showing a sabre attached to the saddle. If there are more out there I'd love to see them.


Take care,
Tom Craig
1st Maine Cavalry

[Mark Choate]

Re: Observations of ANV cavalry.....

There is one more that I have seen of a Confederate cavarlyman with his sabre strapped to the saddle, but I am at a loss to remember who showed it to me. It was a very clear view and no question as to what it was. I want to say that Coley Adair had it but cannot be certain. I may contact him to see.

thanks for the photo Chris,

Mark

[Lance Stifle]

Re: Observations of ANV cavalry.....

Thanks Tom
all your points are valid, I know that over here our Light Horse reenactors have to lift in the saddle, and half twist the upper torso to draw the swords from where they're hung from the nearside rear of the saddle.

I can understand why anyone would look for an easier alternative than that.

The photo of the mounted troops in front of the building was a classic, I've never seen it before, are they Federal or Confederate ?

Interestingly the trooper singled out with the sabre, is mounted on a horse left really long in the "toes", there would have been considerable tendon stretch there.

Thanks again
Kim Stewart

Hey All,

I think I actually may be able to claim credit for coining the term "farbocity" as I have never heard anyone else use it...but by all means feel free to pass it on! :D

Kim, to your point about drawing the sabre and rubbing: over the past two seasons the 1st Maine has done some experimental archeology on the practice (at events where it would be historically accurate). The big catch is that there are lots of references to it being done, but very little evidence of how it was accomplished. There is one picture, if memory serves me right it is from the Cold Harbor timeframe that shows a sabre slung on a saddle, but there is debate about if that slung sabre was a "permanent" attachment or a belt draped over the saddle.

Anyway, we've had some of the guys try various methods of attaching the sabre with all generally favorable results. Some have tried hanging it from the front of the saddle in a verticle fashion, which worked okay. Most have found the best results with the sabre generally horizontal and either slung from straps from the pommel and cantle, or most often run along under the quarterstraps/billet.

With the latter arrangement drawing isn't too much of an effort (not as quick as on the belt) but doesn't seem to cause any problem. Returning the thing seems to be a little more trouble, but that is always the case where ever it is slung. We have had no issues whatsoever with rubs on the horse, and the guys report that once it's in the right place, that it is comfortable.

As an aside, John Tobey has a number of original belts and pieces of belts in his collection. Several of them have additional holes in the sabre hanging straps that happen to line up very well with the saddle in terms of hanging from the pommel and cantle lengthwise along the horse. Certainly not proof of anything, but interesting.

John is unfortunately occupied with "real life" these days and isn't on here too much, but perhaps Andy German can chime in with some citations about the whole thing. I have a few, but they are pretty general. Crowninshield in the 1st MA regimental talks about it, as does Sidney Morris Davis in his book "Common Soldier, Uncommon War" (awesome book by the way).

Take care,
Tom Craig
1st Maine Cavalry

[Tom Craig]

Re: Observations of ANV cavalry.....

Kim,

This group is Federal. It's an interesting observation that you had to ask...the question is indicative of the way in which Federals late in the war looked less and less like the bandbox group that they started the war as.

In reference to the long toes on the horse, I think if you look closely you'll see that it is actually the next horse, which appears to be riderless. It is an awesome picture, especially blown up on a big screen.

Take care,
Tom Craig
1st Maine Cavalry

[Lance Stifle]

Re: Observations of ANV cavalry.....

Thanks Tom
you're right about the next horse.

For me over here starved of such great imagery, it's a really good reference, the men are so "irregular" in appearance, apart from one or two conventional dark uniformed individuals they looked Confederate to my inexperienced and untrained eye.

Cheers
Kim

Kim,

This group is Federal. It's an interesting observation that you had to ask...the question is indicative of the way in which Federals late in the war looked less and less like the bandbox group that they started the war as.

In reference to the long toes on the horse, I think if you look closely you'll see that it is actually the next horse, which appears to be riderless. It is an awesome picture, especially blown up on a big screen.

Take care,
Tom Craig
1st Maine Cavalry

[Mike Ventura]

Re: Observations of ANV cavalry.....

This photo has always fascinated me (I am much more interested in "in the field" photos that are unposed vs. the CDV or posed-in-the-field variety).

The close up of the trooper with the saber attached to the saddle also has a couple of other interesting discussion points; 1) there is something behind the cantle, but it is too small to be a blanket roll, but could conceivably be a rolled-up gum blanket; 2) the aforementioned trooper has no visible carbine sling. Food for thought...

[Tom Craig]

Re: Observations of ANV cavalry.....

This photo has always fascinated me (I am much more interested in "in the field" photos that are unposed vs. the CDV or posed-in-the-field variety).

The close up of the trooper with the saber attached to the saddle also has a couple of other interesting discussion points; 1) there is something behind the cantle, but it is too small to be a blanket roll, but could conceivably be a rolled-up gum blanket; 2) the aforementioned trooper has no visible carbine sling. Food for thought...

Mike,

Good observation on the lack of a carbine sling. In a general survey of company returns throughout virtually any period of the war, there is a general spottiness of accutrements and such. In any given company you can find men who are short carbines, short slings, and short just about anything else. It does beg the question of if you had 25 carbines in a company but only 18 slings counted, then what did those seven guys do?

Take care,
Tom Craig
1st Maine Cavalry

[Mark Choate]

Re: Observations of ANV cavalry.....

Tom,

You make a good point and the question is valid.

I suppose that the voracity of the report could occasionally be in question, but you see it so frequently that I don't believe that to be an answer. Having been fortunate in the past to participate in several week long campaigns that covered 100+ miles, I found that leather was constantly breaking, hook-rings pulling out, haversack straps were tearing loose, items were lost, and on and on and on....... It was at this time that the "school of hard knocks" opens it's doors and a type of "adapt or die" mentality sets in. I have to believe that the variance that we see in these reports, of what they had at the end of the war, had to be impacted by the necessity to improvise. If the sling is broken or lost, then you used something else (hemp rope, etc.) or you carried it in a different manner.

The importance of the carbine dictated that although you did not have a sling, you still needed to carry it. I saw a fella once tie a short carbine across his bed roll. Granted, it made riding through thick woods and brush difficult and his ability to retrieve it was slowed considerably, but he was able to carry it and for quite a distance, too.

Thanks for posing the question,
Mark

[ButtermilkRanger]

Re: Observations of ANV cavalry.....

Here are some of my own observations.... First of all, I'm not sure the closeup of the Federal minus the carbine sling with the saber slung under his saddle is even period. I think that's Guy Musgrove and his carbine is actually in the far left corner of the photo laying on the seat of his truck.

Seriously, though, I've made a couple of real observations. First of all, it's hard for my poor eyesight to make out, but if those are saddlebags, they sure are awful flat for a Federal trooper on campaign. Secondly, I'd agree that the roll on the cantle is a gum blanket, minus a shelter half or sleeping blanket, etc. Probably just an extra shirt or change of socks rolled up in there. I also don't see anything attached to the pommel. This guys is traveling very light, just like his Confederate counterparts. Notice that he does have a crupper, but no breast strap. I also noticed that his stirrip hoods seem to be collapsed. Either this guy is giving us a whole new perspective of Federal cavalry in the field, or it really is a modern day picture of Guy Musgrove and the Critters. I'll put my money on the former, just in case.

I wanted to make one more observation about the Von Boerk sketches Ken posted. Did anyone but me notice that most of those guys in the sketches had pommel holsters? And most looked to me to have either carbines or 2-banders strapped to their backs rather than slung. Granted, though, that they are just sketches, but this isn't a salad bar. If we are going to use a period sketch to support one theory, we can't discount something else in the sketch just because it is counter to what we want to believe.

Let's face the facts... we all too often throw the baby out with the bathwater because we don't want people to associate "US" with "THEM". So we take things to extreme. We disallow any hat brass because THEY over do it at mainstream events. We disallow pistols because Josey Wales and his Merry Men show up with theirs. We say absolutely no Remingtons because somebody may be hiding a spare cylinder somewhere. We don't tie sabers to our saddles. We don't wear stampede strings and we don't wear plums. Yet most of those things CAN be documented to the period. Even spotted horses and stampede strings (a personal pet peeve of mine).

Ken taught me a very valuable lesson many years ago. He said that the only absolute is that there are no absolutes. I've remembered that and try to base my research on it. What we need to do as living historians is to come out of the farbovian fog of our own elitism and realize that there are no absolutes. That means that we have to do like our Infantry pards and tailor our impressions to always be event and unit specific to the scenario. It also means that we should strive to be period EVERYDAY correct. That's what separates us from the 'streamers. They take something that is documented but wear it inaccurately and in disporportionate numbers. In our own way, we do the same thing.

We should embrace a little variety every once in a while, but we have to remember that it's about the numbers. Sure I can document spotted horses in Grierson's command in Louisiana in '63. I can even document jaguar skin trousers in the 3rd Texas Cav in '62 or horned saddles east of the Mississippi in the 1850s. Scott McMahon can easily document stampede strings in Texas prior to the war, but does that make these things correct for the masses?

That's what we have to consider.

I'll stumble off my soap box now and try to get some work done.