Brass Heart Breatplate...?

[boyscout]

Hi everyone, I have a particular question I'm hoping someone here knows the answer to. I am curious as to what the significance is behind the brass hearts I always see on the breastplates/collars of many horses. In my googling I found a couple cavalry guides that specifically mention they are forbidden. I also read in an article that when an soldier received a medal the horse did too and that's where it would go. So basically I am confused as to what the meaning is behind the heart and as to why it isn't allowed.

Thanks,
Brian Beall

[U.S Dragoon]

Re: Brass Heart Breatplate...?

well i an only answer part of your question, the reason that a lot of units and events shy away from there use is, that breast collars were an issued item with the Grimsley "dragoon" saddles , but when the mcclellan saddle and equipments were issued to repalce the grimsleys they were not part of the issued eauipment any more , and when they were used they were generally private purchased.


as to the meaning of the heart i dont know but walso am interested in knowing and i hope that someone has the answer to this question



Jason Klug
Sgt / 7th mich

[Mike Ventura]

Re: Brass Heart Breatplate...?

OMG! The forum upgrade has jumped time backwards 10 years! Breast straps were not an issue item with McClellan saddles. In many cases, a surcingle might have functioned as one. Brass was a commodity that was better used in places other than decoration on a breast strap, As mentioned, breast straps were private purchase, and most were "functional" rather than decorative. Have never heard the "horse got a medal too" theory. I wouldn't bet money on it. The only "medal" that was awarded in the CW period was the Medal of Honor. The armies of the day didn't have a decoration /medal system as we have today, thus medals were not that frequently awarded, but the MOH was awarded at a greater frequency than it is today. In the ACW, a union soldier could win a MOH by capturing enemy colors. A post-war commission went through the ACW MOH awards 20 years or so after the war and disallowed some MOHs.

OK, where's the question about multiple cylinders for pistols?

[Vuhginyuh]

Re: Brass Heart Breatplate...?

Brian, I sent you a private message. It's in the Notifications at the top of the page.

[boyscout]

Re: Brass Heart Breatplate...?

Well, I heard the breast collar often held an eagle or heart -> medal from a newspaper article so the credibility there is minimal. I have found several photos showing the use of breast collars ranging from a private to an officer but I have yet to find one with a clear heart... Blasted side photos aren't helping much however. The heart as a medal is still an interesting but plausible idea at best. But I'm still curious as to what the origin is behind the heart and how it has gained such fame for being simply a "flare" item.

-Brian Beall

[Mike Ventura]

Re: Brass Heart Breatplate...?

Brian:

Brian:

Who told you that a breast strap often held an eagle or heart? What was the source of their info? What was/is the documentation? These are the questions that you need to ask. There's a boat-load of mis-information in this hobby. You may see some brass-heart breast straps in pictures from the civil war era by modern artists, but that doesn't make it historically correct.

Re-read my explanation of medal issue in the CW.

The non-use of the "brass heart" breast straps has always been one of the delineators that separate those of us who are more authentically minded from those who aren't in the cavalry arena. Back in the day, the farbier cavalry guys had brass heart breast straps, pommel holsters and extra cylinders for their pistols. Many of them still do that today. If those are the guys that you are hanging with, then this forum may not be for you. The discussion regarding breast straps, the use of and what they were, has ebbed and flowed on this forum for at least a decade. Non of the makers who have modeled their gear after known historical pieces or evidence ever made a brass heart adorned breast strap. I'm not saying that there was never, ever one historically, just that, even if it was , it isn't POC.

It's best to spend some time and get your info from reliable sources. The internet gives you ample opportunity to do so.

[U.S Dragoon]

Re: Brass Heart Breatplate...?

.....i think were missing his question here! like you said mike those of us who are authentically minded know that breast collars werent an issued item and that when they were used (sparingly) they often had a iron ring that the yoke straps attach too. but the brass heart breast strap did exsist!!! it was part of the grimsley saddle equipment and were issued with thoses saddles during the 1850s with the dragoon regiments (pre war ) ...........i think what brian wants to know is why use a heart shape item? why was it a heart and not a dimond or a cross or any other shape? what would have been the sinifficance of the heart and such???

brian if your horse needs a breast collar try using a civilain pattern breast collar or use a spare surcingle.


Jason Klug
Sgt 7th mich Cavalry

[David Fox]

Re: Brass Heart Breatplate...?

Although an aside admittedly, I respectfully disagree with the above-stated assertion that the only medal awarded in the Civil War was the Medal of Honour. There were a plethora of medals awarded on the Union side, just not necessarily by the Federal government. Perhaps most evocative were the Kearney medal and Kearney Cross. The Fort Pickens, Fort Sumter, Gillmore, and Butler medals come to mind. I don't have my sourses handy, but I believe Congress and various northern States also commissioned medals for individual, usually high-ranking recipients after majour successes. These latter were table medals, not meant to be worn.

On the Confederate side there were the silver Mexican coins converted to medals for those who participated in Dick Dowling's successful Texas defense of the Sabine Pass against a Union naval incursion in September, 1863. A wartime photograph of Dowling shows him wearing what appears to be this award, sponsored by the women of Houston in 1864. I own a Stonewall Brigade medal, a table medal minted in France in 1864 for award to the the survivors of the Stonewall Brigade. These medals were run into the Confederacy, hidden from Sherman in Savannah, and in 1894 rediscovered, refurbished, and sold to support Confederate veteran-related causes. A photo of one of Jackson's veterans taken long after the war shows at least one of the intended recipients acquired his medal and had it altered to suspend proudly from his chest.

[Tom Craig]

Re: Brass Heart Breatplate...?

Brian,

I have never seen any documentation on why there would be a heart on the breastplate. I think it would be difficult to find a rationale printed anywhere quite frankly. Ordnance manuals don't generally explain the why, they just tell you what is supposed to be. That said, I am no expert on Grimsley equipments to know if they were part of that set or not. They were not CW issue equipment at all.

I have never seen a photograph or any documentation of an original used in the war. I have seen at least one original with a leather heart, not brass. I have seen a few surviving original officer breast straps with decorative eagles on them instead of hearts.

As for the bit about the medal being placed there, I have never heard of such a thing. Regardless of what type of medals were issued or, their frequency you have to remember that the average army horse lasted about three months, and that the large majority were looked on like the Jeeps of WWII. A trusted ally, but still a tool. You don't award medals to tools.

Mike jumped all over your post because as he pointed out, the breast strap issue was hashed out years ago with the result that there is no documentation for them. Some folks get testy having to answer the same old questions...for me I feel that as long as the question was asked in sincerity that it is a learning experience for the person asking the question, and therefore there are no dumb questions.

Take care,
Tom Craig
1st Maine Cavalry

[Sut Lovingood]

Re: Brass Heart Breatplate...?

Brian,

You asked a valid question concerning design of a particular piece of equipment, ie. the brass heart martingale. I did not take it that you were wanting reenforcement on whether it was PEC, so my answer will not be addressed as such. The heart motif was seen on other pieces of Dragoon horse equipment as well. By that time it had become a traditional motif which predates the period. PM me if you have not learned the origin yet.

Not being coy with information, but the heart motif origin is neither Civil War or even U.S. military, so accordingly I won't address it in a U.S. Civil War forum without mod. approval.

[Ken Knopp]

Re: Brass Heart Breatplate...?

There are several fine people that frequent this forum with great knowledge on Federal equipments that can comment far better than I. Still, this is probably a good debate to revisit although if ever so briefly for there is some merits to it.
Here some photos to ponder. The three photos of mounted Federal soldiers show breast strap ornamentation. Expanded views indicated that one appears to be round rather than heart shape possibly a shoulder strap type accoutrement breast plate. The others appear to be hearts. Still more photos of mounted Federals are non-descriptive. Check out my web site www.confederatesaddles.com see Photo Galleries under “Mounted Federals”. I also enclose a couple of photos of these found on saddlery artifacts including one plain brass heart on Federal Gen. Beatie’s equipments and two believed to be Dragoon era.
Somewhere, although for the life of me I could not put my hands on it, I have seen a photo of two/three Federal troopers each clearly with the infamous plain brass heart breast straps. In addition, many heart ornaments of varying appearances have been often excavated from CW sites. I have seen many variations of these at CW shows. Nevertheless, not with standing all of this, the evidence and documentation suggests and, the consensus remains clear (among well informed folks and, on this forum) that this was NOT an issue but a private purchase item. If one’s impression is an enlisted trooper and P.E.C. then this would NOT be an item found on his equipments.
As to its origins I do not know. However, I would point out that the heart ornamentation on a breast strap is located at a natural location given the frontal view of the anatomy of the horse. Military applications of a breast strap both decorative and protective can be found on popular European equipment of the period (emulated by our military of the period) and common sense suggests it probably goes back much, much further. Anyway, not worth much but just my thoughts.


Ken R Knopp

[CJSchumacher]

Re: Brass Heart Breatplate...?

Hello Ken,

Agreed that heart-shaped ornamentation was not issued with the enlisted McClellan horse equipments or any breaststrap, period. However, as you've noted from time to time, they pop up in photos from either an earlier issued Dragoon equipment or as some sort of civilian tack. Officers, responsible for purchasing their own gear, were more likely to have been using a breaststrap they themselves purchased. Original examples show variations, including the use of fancy ornamentation (brass or otherwise), stitching, nicer hardware, brass or shellacked leather panels often in a complimentary color (yellow, red, etc.), ones including the use of a running martingale, etc. etc. The variations are too numerous to count. Whatever the saddler and/or customer could come dream up. I've seen a grouping in a private collection of brass hearts from civilian and military tack that had so many different hearts, your eyes would spin. I love that beautiful Grimsley officer's rig in the fourth picture, by the way.

They were there, however in everyday use...not so common.

I remember back in the 80's and early 90's these things were very popular among the reenacting ranks and only a few of us really challenged things back in the day. I think they must be a holdover. And that second photo sure looks like modern reenactors to me. Not so good when referencing "original" material...

[boyscout]

Re: Brass Heart Breatplate...?

Thanks everyone for your responses... Unfortunately a decade ago I was still not old enough to drive a car so I am new to all of this and I hope you understand my "digging." I do not currently participate in reenactments although I would like to get involved someday. Horses and cavalry were my passion as a kid but there are no cavalry regiments in MN, to my knowledge, so consider this my research phase. So, here I appear. My question on this topic was aimed more toward the historical origin of the heart and the medal aspect (Rae look for a PM) of which I am kicking myself now for not saving the article. Regardless, the author must have been mistaken so I thank you all for helping clear that up!

-Brian Beall

[The Egyptian Homeguard]

Re: Brass Heart Breatplate...?

Actually guys I have had access to an original OFFICERS "brass heart" martingale that came with an original shabrak. The shabrak is now in a museum in Missouri...The shabrak and martingale look just like General Ingall's shown at... http://www.freeinfosociety.com/media/images/5335.jpg The diffrence being, the one locally has a super thin, nearly flat brass heart. Interesting enough the martingale isn't all leather, it's very fine wool, with a very thin, kid glove type leather backing. I've been trying to get the guy that owns it to let me photograph it... if he does I'll post them. So they did exist but not like the reenactorisms that are made and sold on sutler row today... TEH

[jerryace]

Re: Brass Heart Breatplate...?

Well, I have an authenic brass heart martingale complete with U S on the face just like a buckle. Found it in 1985 above the Cumberland River and L&N railroad north of Nashville, Tn. It is military issue. You can see it on my facebook site along with two Confederate buttons I found at Redoubt No. 2 in Nashville. If you're on Facebook look up Jerry Wilkins and go to photos. I have seen one that was broken and mended and sold for $1,295.00 They are extremely rare.
Jerry Wilkins
Westmoreland, Tn