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**IowaYank** · 04-01-2010, 08:04 AM

Re: Saddle Tree Makers...

I don't want to speak for Ethan, but I believe Ethan Harrington has done some work on trees before. I know Ethan is an excellent woodworker and cabinet maker. I would suggest getting in contact with him.

Dan

**Blair** · 04-01-2010, 08:13 AM

Re: Saddle Tree Makers...

Zack,

Do an Internet search for "Border States Leather", owned by Doug Kidd. Click on their "View Catalog"... I think you will find what you are looking for there under Texas Saddles.
I think you may be able to buy just the rawhide coved tree and rig it out yourself. Or have Doug rig it out from a skeleton to a full dresser saddle. He has several styles to choose from.
You can also do a search for "Ryans", in FT Worth, TX. They still have a Texas/Hope tree they used for a pattern to make new saddles.
I hope you find this of use to you.

**Longrope** · 04-01-2010, 08:52 AM

Re: Saddle Tree Makers...

The problem with taking your spanish tree to a modern saddle tree maker, is that they are in the business of building modern saddle trees. Tell them you want a 15 1/2 inch Wade with northwest bars and they know exactly what you are talking about. Those that offer "old" styles still build them in a modern way. Laminated wood forks, modern "dish" seats, and poorly sewn rawhide, if they even use rawhide. My suggestion is to find a custom tree maker that will listen to what you want to create, and not have their own ideas. Some of the makers that I know might work, I'll e-mail the contact information.

I wasn't very impressed with the tree maker from Georgia. He sewed the rawhide on with nylon thread.

**Mark Choate** · 04-01-2010, 08:56 AM

Re: Saddle Tree Makers...

Zack,

I sent you a PM.

thx,
Mark

**OldKingCrow** · 04-01-2010, 09:31 AM

Re: Saddle Tree Makers...

Originally posted by Blair View Post

Zack,

Do an Internet search for "Border States Leather", owned by Doug Kidd. Click on their "View Catalog"... I think you will find what you are looking for there under Texas Saddles.
I think you may be able to buy just the rawhide coved tree and rig it out yourself. Or have Doug rig it out from a skeleton to a full dresser saddle. He has several styles to choose from.
You can also do a search for "Ryans", in FT Worth, TX. They still have a Texas/Hope tree they used for a pattern to make new saddles.
I hope you find this of use to you.

Do you ride a Border States saddle..... What are you basing this on, the website ?

Many saddle tree purveyors use synthetic lace to tie up their hides, even on "historic trees" in addition to the laminates, improper leather thickness, lack of vegetable dye and tanning methods and other anachronistic tid bits

I did some serious due dillegence when contemplating my purchase and Border States didnt meet the level of representative historical accuracy I was seeking personally.

CJ Rideout
Tampa, Florida

**Blair** · 04-01-2010, 11:02 AM

Re: Saddle Tree Makers...

CJ,

I think your concerns are worthy of note.
Do you have any constructive suggestion that may answer the original posters query?
I'm sure any alternative you may have to offer would be greatly appreciated by everyone with an interest in this subject.

If I were still riding, I would personally try getting my tree from "Ryan's" in FT. Worth, TX. I have seen the original basic pattern tree they use for making their Texas/Hope saddle. As well as their pattern book for rigging it out.
But that is me, and would only be a suggestion on my part as to where the original poster might go for his tree.

**OldKingCrow** · 04-01-2010, 12:01 PM

Re: Saddle Tree Makers...

Originally posted by Blair View Post

CJ,

Do you have any constructive suggestion that may answer the original posters query?

Yes mind Mark Choate's PM....my initial statement was as constructive as if I posted one might mind the accuracy of a Fawl Kreek Kanteen.

I'm sure any alternative you may have to offer would be greatly appreciated by everyone with an interest in this subject.

I have spoken at length with, examined, finger diddled, ridden, saddled up, slept on and most importantly compared his products based on what I learned first hand from not only folks I respect in the field (and a woot woot for Ken Knopp books !), but also the historical record and extant examples

and

therefore can and have, without hesitation recommend Karl Pepper (but he out sources his trees so I kept my suck shut til I saw the BS promotion). OldSouth has one and it is slicker than snail snot. I also own Duval products and know some of the men mentoring his tack skillcraft development so would not hesitate there either.

If I were still riding, I would personally try getting my tree from "Ryan's" in FT. Worth, TX.

Then it seems you would be headed even farther away in terms of representative historical accuracy from Border States in perusing Sean Ryon's website, fine as his saddles may be for other applications. I see nothing to indicate an eye toward history or historical reproductions of mid-19th cent military saddles such as mention of...forged iron staples, footman staples, barrel rings. veg dyed / tanned leathers, waxed linen thread, hand sewing to the prescribed inch, hand formed trees of solid woods ..etc.....

CJ Rideout
Tampa, FLorida

**Blair** · 04-01-2010, 01:02 PM

Re: Saddle Tree Makers...

CJ,
So, your "constructive suggestion that may answer the original posters query" is exactly what?
Tell him. Not me. It was not my question! And it is not my thread!
It makes no difference whether you and I agree or disagree on any particular source. That is solely up to what the original Poster given the info he/she has.
Perhaps, and again this is just a suggestion on my part, you might try offering usable/useful information to the original query before you start hunting for a verbal confrontation with what others may have offered or suggest as an options. I wont give you the satisfaction of playing yet another one of your infamous nitpicking game Chris.
What is helpful and what is purposefully antagonistic in these matters are best left up to the Moderating staff.
Thank you, but I am done.

**ethan harrington** · 04-01-2010, 01:04 PM

Re: Saddle Tree Makers...

Dan,
You can speak for me anytime that you want,LOL..
Yes I can make your tree for you and even out of black gum and ash per some originals, but I want to clear something up without sounding like an a@#hole, this stuff to do it right is still done with hand tools if you can get them, as well as it takes time/trile and error.And a little time with a few modern elements comming into play to ease the work a bit. the main point of this post is " It sometimes takes a few try's to get it right and if you are only doing one you just have some stuff left over and not anything to put into the next one. One off's are cool and I am working on a few projects that will be done in limited runs but they won't be cheap, I guess what I'm try to say is no tire kicker's.
Again I don't want to sound like a butt.

Ethan Harrington

**Longrope** · 04-01-2010, 01:21 PM

Re: Saddle Tree Makers...

This thread is in danger of getting away from Zack's original question. It is also straying from the AC guidelines. Ryon's and Border States are the best Authentic recommendations that folks can give? Let's try and raise the bar just a little higher.

**OldKingCrow** · 04-01-2010, 01:28 PM

Re: Saddle Tree Makers...

Originally posted by Blair View Post

CJ,

It makes no difference whether you and I agree or disagree on any particular source. That is solely up to what the original Poster given the info he/she has.
Perhaps, and again this is just a suggestion on my part, you might try offering usable/useful information to the original query before you start hunting for a verbal confrontation with what others may have offered or suggest as an options. I wont give you the satisfaction of playing yet another one of your infamous nitpicking game Chris.
What is helpful and what is purposefully antagonistic in these matters are best left up to the Moderating staff.
Thank you, but I am done.

Here is a suggestion on my part......loosen your girth and slacken your reins. You came on not once, but twice promoting vendors which do not meet the spirit and standards of the representative, historical accuracy which is the stated purpose of this community. One of your posted "go to saddlers" doesnt even indicate he makes saddles from the 19th Century. Therefore, the source does matter. Once again you see personal attack when your stated positions of expert certanity are questioned or counter information is presented.

I listed two vetted and known sources in addition to some of the modern shortcuts / shortcomings of mainstream vendors, in addition to listing some of the attributes most identified with period tack construction techinques and materials. Maybe the butt-hurt-ed-ness comes from being asked on what you base your Border States testimonial and recommendation on ?

CJ Rideout
Tampa, Florida

**The Egyptian Homeguard** · 04-01-2010, 09:35 PM

Re: Saddle Tree Makers...

Okay All, I should have clarified�

I don�t know many of the new guys in here as I�ve not been around much lately. I�ve been on and off this forum longer than most here� Paul Calloway, Coley Adair, Ken Knopp, Rob Hodge and many others are all friends and can attest to my gear. Hell, Coley even wanted to buy my Cav. jacket at one point, because it�s one of the best ones ever made. I�m no stranger to authenticity! I rode for the AoP, and did infantry with the Skulker�s Mess before that. So standards ARE a must!

I�ve talked to Doug (at BSL) he wants me to send him the tree and he�ll send it on to a tree-maker� that can�t happen. I have to have some degree of control over this original tree (ie: know where it is). If it were mine maybe, but it�s not, so that end that issue. I�ve also seen his �western� treed saddles, they aren�t what I�m looking for. I wasn�t even looking at horned saddles until Brian showed me this tree.

I�ve also talked to a couple of �off the rack� tree-makers. Like I said they aren�t interested in just one�And I�m not interested in seeing this tree mass produced. It�s unique, and I�d like to see it kept that way.

As far as cost goes� I�m riding a decent (but not really high speed) saddle now and would like to upgrade to something better, I�m looking at upgrading sometime in 2011, that�s why I�m looking for a tree-maker now.

Ethan, not to be an ass either, but tire-kicking is exactly what we all do when exploring the idea of something� I wouldn�t waste anyone�s time just window shopping. Like anything else there has to be a ball park figure to know if something is going to be cost prohibitive or worth while. I grew up in a family of carpenters so believe me I know time spent on a project isn�t cheap. I also know that I don�t want an exact reproduction. The bars will have to be spread to semi-quarter horse or Arizona bars without deforming the look of the pommel. I don�t know much about tree making, which is why I�m looking at farming it out to someone who does and not doing it myself. The tree is a pretty hard �A� shape and wouldn�t fit many well fed horses today. It wouldn�t fit any of mine as it is now. I guess I should have given you a better idea of what I�m looking at. Take a look at Ken�s webpage at http://confederatesaddles.com/cswp/?page_id=792&pid=626 This picture is the exact same style tree. I could be wrong, but I�ve never see it reproduced. It�s not like I have the corner on the market or anything, but I do have access to one like it� Let me know a ball park figure if you can and I�ll go from there.

Thanks for all the replies, here, pm and e-mail. TEH

**Tom Craig** · 04-01-2010, 10:02 PM

Re: Saddle Tree Makers...

The big problem as I understand it is that most trees are made by just a handful of people/companies. Most of the vendors reproducing saddles have to buy from those vendors, so regardless of who finishes your saddle, you end up with a flawed product because the foundation was poor. I know Nick Duvall has been working on sourcing trees, but it hasn't been an easy process.

As Ethan said, a properly made tree involves a lot handwork, and the guys who typically have that skill in handwork aren't using it making saddle trees. I am certain that if you looked long and hard that you could find a craftsman out there who would like a challenge and would copy the tree you have. It might take quite some time, and it might be very expensive, but it could be done. If you have a tree that needed to be rawhided, that is a whole separate thing, and agruably harder to find. I am sure that there are people out there with the skill, they just happen to be very well hidden right now!

One fellow that hasn't been suggested yet is Stuart Lilley. He had a website, not sure if he does anymore. Last I heard he was based out of Williamsburg, VA, and most of his work was on colonial era stuff, but I know he does some CW work as well. His work is VERY good and he pays great attention to detail. I would also recommend that you give Nick Duvall a holler as he may be able to help as well. I would NOT recomment Doug Kidd as his product does not typically meet the standards espoused on this board.

Good luck,
Tom Craig
1st Maine Cavalry

**ethan harrington** · 04-02-2010, 02:13 PM

Re: Saddle Tree Makers...

Zack,
I here ya lowd and clear... I just have a hard time pricing my work CW related as well as biss related not that I am better than anybody else or a jerk I just think " not you personally" that some peaples ambitions outway their finances that they thought it would take to get a project done and that is why you don't see a lot a GOOD saddle trees being reproduced.

Again I would love to work with you on it it looks like a cool one, send me a P.M. and well talk more about it if you whish.

Thanks
Ethan Harrington.

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