Saddle Tree Makers...

[Longrope]

Re: Saddle Tree Makers...

Any chance of a photo?

[neocelt]

Re: Saddle Tree Makers...

Zack,

I'd love to see some photos of the tree in question. Is it a full Spanish or Half-Spanish?

I've spent the better part of three decades (and no small amount of personal treasure) trying to find a skilled tree maker who was a) willing to tackle this type of project, and b) able to see through a 19th c. craftsman's eyes. These are two very different things. Talent is one thing, but even a very talented tree maker will tend to build trees the way he was taught--and no one (to my knowledge) is building saddle trees in the 19th c. manner today. The Spanish/Half-Spanish is a very unusual bird, as you have obviously kenned (and I love 'em dearly)--an interesting, and entirely American, design that borrows features from the English and Iberian/Latin American saddlery schools of the period. Those last three words are really the crux of the issue.

As my friend Casey Mott--who has extensive experience with both period and modern saddle leather--has wisely stated, you aren't just looking for a talented woodworker, cabinet maker, or what have you, to try to replicate the tree you have in hand; you want an artisan who can modify it to suit a horse with quite different conformation without compromising the tree design. That's a very tall order indeed! You require a custom tree builder with a period mindset. Saddle tree building is an art in itself, and period saddle tree building is therefore a sub-set of a sub-set. Now add to that someone who is willing and able to correctly rawhide a tree in the period fashion (and I haven't seen that accomplished yet), and you're really contemplating a daunting project. A worthy project, to be sure, but I know you to be an authenticity-conscious fellow, and the smart money is on the product of your labors NOT meeting your satisfaction--and that after investing a great deal of time, effort and money. God bless ya for tryin'! I've spent a good many years researching and building period saddles, both civilian and military, and I can only speak from my own experience. Take it for what it's worth.

And as a postscript: Thank goodness some folks have finally gotten wise to the fact that BS leatherworks is aptly named--and are not afraid to say so. Nick Duvall and Stuart Lilie are both historical artisans who do very high-quality work--I'd be honored to buy either gent a pint--and neither charges nearly enough for their products.

Zack, feel free to email me directly, if you'd like to talk about my favorite subject, mid-19th c. saddlery--I love to learn!

Live Out Loud!
Aden
Aden@AdenNichols.com

[Mike Ventura]

Re: Saddle Tree Makers...

Does any one - Patrick Petersen?, Paddy Mac? - remember the name of the guy (James ???) in North Georgia that used to make the trees when those of us who were Critters 6-7 years ago were making saddles?

[J.H.Berger]

Re: Saddle Tree Makers...

Mike, search for James Marcus Woodworking company.

[The Egyptian Homeguard]

Re: Saddle Tree Makers...

All, many have asked to see the saddle tree in question, but I don't have pictures of it as of yet... This link goes to Ken Knopp's web page to a virtually identical tree. Hope this gives you some better idea as to what style tree I'm looking at... No, I don't plan on doing a full cover on it... Thanks again for the information shared, and suggestions. TEH

http://confederatesaddles.com/cswp/?page_id=792&pid=626

[neocelt]

Re: Saddle Tree Makers...

All, many have asked to see the saddle tree in question, but I don't have pictures of it as of yet... This link goes to Ken Knopp's web page to a virtually identical tree. Hope this gives you some better idea as to what style tree I'm looking at... No, I don't plan on doing a full cover on it... Thanks again for the information shared, and suggestions. TEH

http://confederatesaddles.com/cswp/?page_id=792&pid=626

Zack, I just looked at the link and the saddle shown there is not a "Spanish" saddle. Strange no one else mentioned this. Despite the name, the "Spanish" and "Half-Spanish" types are in fact a uniquely American design dating to the late Federal period and emanating from the greater St. Louis/Upper Mississippi River Valley region. The saddle pictured at the link is a Southwestern design, and a perfect example of how the subjective application of nomenclature to historic saddle styles can get us into trouble: "Catalog makers called these 'Demi-Applehorn' saddles as they did not have a full 'rounded' apple horn." I believe the catalog makers he's referring to post-date the Civil War period. The so-called "Applehorn," or "Mother Hubbard," saddles are a lineal descendant of the California type and didn't make their appearance until the 1870s. Furthermore, with each passing decade, the makers of catalog saddles became increasing less discriminate (and increasingly more whimsical) in their application of naming conventions (creative marketing hyperbole); they didn't do historians any favors! Their terminology is not reliable for historical classification purposes--indeed, it can really muddy the waters! The saddle shown in the photo has a "button" on top of the horn, and the tree configuration and rigging are typical of an Anglo treatment of the Mexican stockman’s saddle (la silla vaquero mexicana), primarily those developed along the US/Mexican border and therefore heavily influenced by the Sonora and California schools of saddlery. Robert E. Lee and Jefferson Davis both rode saddles of this type and rigged in this manner in the Mexican War. I replicated Davis's saddle for display at the Jefferson Davis Home & Presidential Library at Beauvoir. Unfortunately, the original--which was on loan from the Museum of the Confederacy for display as well--was lost in Hurricane Katrina, though my replica was rescued from the muck because it was strapped to a fiberglass horse!

I hope this helps provide some clarity.

[The Egyptian Homeguard]

Re: Saddle Tree Makers...

Aden, I was always under the impression that any horned (what we consider a "western") was dubbed a "spanish" or texas treed saddle... I'm not as well versed in period citizen model saddles as I should be, but it seems reliable resources are few. The accounts I've found where saddles are mentioned are vague at best. Perhaps you, Ken and some others who are more familiar with 19th century saddles could enlighten us in another thread. It is something all persons of our period would be familiar with, but the majority of reenactors are seriously lacking. I'm a perfect example, I've been around horses for 30+ years and as much as I like the C.W. and horses, I don't know much about period civilian saddles! Thanks much, Zack

[MustangGray]

Re: Saddle Tree Makers...

I just caem acorss this today. While it doesn't describe the saddle in detail I find it interesting that it mentions "Spanish" saddles of American manufacture. Also note the blue cloth cover... which I'm guessing was the false saddle cloth attached to the rear of the saddle. I've seen English/flat seat type saddles covered in cloth, but never a "Spanish" type done this way... has anyone else seen this before?

http://www.texasslaveryproject.org/sources/TTR/display.php?f=TSP0081.xml

"Fifty Dollars," Telegraph and Texas Register, June 8, 1837

Summary: John Jones placed an ad requesting the capture of a runaway and several horses. Gave the slave's age, height, complexion, the clothes he wore, and stressed that he used to be William Travis's slave and was the only survivor of the Alamo. Also described the horses and a Mexican man who ran away with him. Offered 40 dollars for the slave and 10 dollars for the Mexican and horses.

WILL be given for delivering to me on Briney's Prairie, seven miles from Columbia, a negro man-named Joe, belonging to the succession of the late Wm. Barret Travis, who took off with him a Mexican and two horses, saddles and bridles. This negro was in the Alamo with his master when it was taken; and was the only man from the colonies who was not put to death: he is about twenty-five years of age, five feet ten or eleven inches high, very black and good countenance: had on when he left, on the night of the 21st April ult. A dark mixed sattinet round jacket and new white cotton pantaloons. One of the horses taken is a bay, about 14 1/2 hands high very heavy built, with a blaze in his face, a bushy mane and tail and a sore back; also the property of said succession, the other horse is a chesnut sorrel, above 16 hands high. The saddles are of the Spanish form, but of American manufacture, and one of them covered with blue cloth. Forty dollars will be given for Joe and the small bay horse, (Shannon,) and ten dollars for the Mexican other horse and saddles and bridles.

If the runaways are taken more than one hundred miles from my residence, I will pay all reasonable travelling expenses, in addition to the above reward.

JOHN R. JONES, Ex'r of W.B. Travis.

Bailey's Prairie, May 21st, 1837. 70-3m tf[sic]

[The Egyptian Homeguard]

Re: Saddle Tree Makers...

Scott, Cool information. Makes me wonder if it was the bay horse that was valuable, or was it Joe? He even went as far as to name the horse... In other searches for Spanish type saddles, I ran across these links...

The first is from the Museum of the Fur Trade. Interesting tree, any thoughts anyone? http://www.furtrade.org/3collct/3collct5.html

The second is from a saddler in Montana. http://www.bisonsaddlery.com/histori...ail.asp?ID=112I don't know anything about his methods, authenticity or any such detail. I'm not advocating his authenticity, or endorsing him. I do know that several years ago I was blasted on this same web site for bringinng this saddle up an questioning if were an authentic style...I was told something along the lines of "if it was authentic, we would have known about it by now". I guess if we are still in doubt as to is historical usage, we can look at http://confederatesaddles.com/cswp/?...page=2&pid=569 and http://confederatesaddles.com/cswp/?...page=2&pid=568

I think Ken is more that enough of an authority for me... TEH

[Longrope]

Re: Saddle Tree Makers...

My real interest is California saddles. I have looked into this subject for many years, and I think I have some insight into what the style was. The tree shown on the Museum of the Fur Trade website has a few things about it that bother me.

The first is the rigging. It's center-fire like a good California saddle should be, but I've never seen it run through the gullet and over the bars before. Every one that I've seen has the rigging over the fork and wrapped around the horn. Just don't confuse this with the Samstagg rigging that came later

California was a poor Spanish/Mexican colony in the early 19th century. metal of all sorts was rare. Knives, bits, spurs, and the like were what was made. People learned to make do without it. Saddlers would build their saddles with no metal at all. Stirrup leathers were hung over the bars, and hangers were not used.

The over all "look" of the tree is not right for the 1830's California. The cantle is to high, and the horn has what I would call an "Attakappas" bend to it. It actually would fit better as an 1870's California tree.

Having said all this, I am aware that I don't know everything, and I havn't seen all the California saddles there are out there. It is entirely possible that this tree is exactly what they say it is, especially if it was a "higher" end saddle for a rancho owner. I'm more interested in what the vaqueros were riding. If we go by the plain, everyday, common, mantra of the AC, then I suggest to anyone looking at this fur trade tree, to look elsewhere for a tree to base a reproduction on.

[RebelCav]

Re: Saddle Tree Makers...

Get in touch with Karl Pepper at Glen Pier Depot. My father and I have 4 or 5 saddles from him that are authenticly correct. I myself ride a civilian style Texas rig that I got from him. I am not sure where he gets his trees from but they seem to be very well made and are period correct.

[Tom Craig]

Re: Saddle Tree Makers...

Get in touch with Karl Pepper at Glen Pier Depot. My father and I have 4 or 5 saddles from him that are authenticly correct. I myself ride a civilian style Texas rig that I got from him. I am not sure where he gets his trees from but they seem to be very well made and are period correct.

Charlie,
I see from your number of posts that you are new here. Welcome aboard!

Unless I miss my guess, Karl Pepper is getting his trees from the same one or two suppliers that everyone else is, and the quality of those trees leave a lot to be desired.

No slam on Karl and his work, as I haven't seen a recent example of what he is turning out but in the past what I have seen from him would fall in the "workable" category in terms of authenticity. Better than some, but by no means the most authentic.

To everyone else: I got a chance to see Todd Kearn's new saddle from Stuart Lillie this past weekend...what a work of art! I have never seen a repro saddle with such craftmanship and attention to detail as the one Todd's got. If you're looking for a CS or civilian saddle I highly recommend Stuart's work.

Take care,
Tom Craig
1st Maine Cavalry

[ButtermilkRanger]

Re: Saddle Tree Makers...

For a moment there I thought I was having flashbacks to the old Cav forum of 10+ years ago! The debate over BSL vs. Heartland House saddles, Jenifers vs. Texas saddles being prevelant, etc. I guess history really does repeat itself. What is surprising is that despite the leaps and bounds the Internet has done to allow us to share information, we still keep coming back to the same basic questions year after year. I've been on this forum along with Zack and a few others since it's infancy in the Paul Calloway days. I can remember some fine sharing of information without the slippery slope of "mine vs. yours" of other forums for the authenticity challenged. I've had the privilege of riding with most of the western guys on this forum and I know most of us to be as dedicated to historical accuracy as anyone else. One quick word about Doug Kidd and Karl Pepper.... I've seen the mainstream end of their business and I've seen some of the stuff that myself and the guys I ride with have custom ordered to period specs. Both can and have used correct dyes, thread, leather weight, hardware, stitching, stuffing, etc. I know because I am as particular as the next guy and I want my stuff historically correct and I try to go to the originals as much as possible. I guess we all get what we are willing to pay for, and I see no reason to discredit anyone when I know first hand that they are capable of producing historically accurate horse equipage.

However, Zack's original issue of correctly produced horned trees is one that has perplexed many of us for years. Unfortunated, as has already been stated, most reproduction saddlers are forced to use the same few less-than-desirable tree makers. Even when we can get the correct leather, dye, etc., what good does it make if we put it on a modern tree? And, like someone has also mentioned, when you change the shape of a period tree to fit a modern horse, you're left with a mutant. I guess that's why we keep doing what we have to do and keep searching for the perfect product.

Okay, Rip Van Winkle is going back to sleep. Wake me up if someone comes up with an original debate. :)

[GAR]

Re: Saddle Tree Makers...

I believe the company you lost the contact info for is James Custom Wood Shop in Clarksville, GA.

http://Jcwssaddletrees.biz/

I hope this helps.

Gary

[TexCavly]

Re: Saddle Tree Makers...

Will Ghormley has developed a nice Texas Hope tree. Maybe he could work with his tree maker to produce what you're looking for. http://www.willghormley-maker.com/ Oh, and by the way, I'm new too.