Shod or Un-Shod and Ferriers

[RCR001]

My guess is they run out of shoes long before they run out of bulletts so most of them ponies we're un-shod. Except for them good fighting horses. Them ones the veterans rode in amongst 'em.

What say you all? How do you think it really was? What does the official record say about percentages in the ranks? Does anybody know?

Do you all ever see a ferrier in the ranks? Why the heck not? I'd think it'd be a perfect living history type impression to make. Relevent to Today, but based in 19th century methodolgy and accoutrements.

You know them boys worked on the horses all the time. Picking and cleaning and trimming their hooves. Grooming 'em. Their lives depended on them horses. They took care of 'em. Especially their feet.

Pointers to definitive resources would be greatly appreciated.:confused_

[Tom Craig]

Re: Shod or Un-Shod and Ferriers

Hey John,

You're asking "new guy" questions, which is awesome because you want to learn, and that's what we're here for. One piece of advice is to be as specific as possible when asking your questions, and in general (although it doesn't apply to these questions you've asked) use the search function on here first to see if the questions you have have already been asked.

In regards to the shoe question, I'm assuming that you are referring to CS troops and their horses? Regardless of what side you're talking about, horses for cavalry use were supposed to be shod. Now, supposed to be and were can be two different things. On the Federal side of things they did as good of a job as they could making sure that horses were in fact shod. Each trooper was supposed to carry two extra shoes, and farriers traveled with the cavalry to replace shoes as soon as possible. I am no expert at all on the CS side of things, but my instinct tells me that the CS followed the same pattern as much as supplies etc would permit. Perhaps someone with some more expertise on the CS side of things can weigh in here.

Accurate farrier impressions are pretty rare for a few different reasons. First, the farrier was supposed to have a travelling forge, and such a vehicle is rarer than a hen's tooth, and I am not aware of any reproductions. Second, the army farrier is poorly documented enough that the exact make-up of his tool kit is still up for debate, let alone anything else. And third, as I am sure you know, shoeing horses is a skill that is best left to professionals. The guys who know how to do it generally do it as their 9-5 job, and asking them to do it at events is kinda like asking a guy who does construction to come out and build stuff at events...who wants to do their day job that they get paid for, on the weekend for free?

Take care,
Tom Craig
1st Maine Cavalry

[RCR001]

Re: Shod or Un-Shod and Ferriers

Yes sir. Thank you. I am prone to ask a simple question or two. I appreciate your kind and toughtful response. Thank you very much.

I was referring to all organizations other than the US Army. I guess I figured whenever any of the Southern, Seccessionist Supported or Independent group of fighters ran up on a Union campsite that had ferrier stuff in it, they took it. Shoes, nailes, picks and clippers. Wouldn't it be a hoot to see the boys dragging one of them travelling forges into camp? Especially one that had "State of Maine" stamped all over it. ;)

You know, Maine and Missouri have one thing in common. Ever heard of the Missouri Compromise? You could say, THAT's what started this whole ungreatful mess.

[1sgtscot]

Re: Shod or Un-Shod and Ferriers

A couple of notes here... I have read several accounts of this, but I'm away from my home so quoting the exact source may take a while, but I have read toward the end of the war 'bout troopers collecting horse feet (cutting them off) just to get the shoes. Don't remember exactly where I read it, but I'll see if I can find it again. The second issue was carrying two shoes. When I read about this, I decided to get much more involved with my horse and learn as much as I could about 'putting the darn things on'. As the local ferrier price went up, it just made more and more sense. So today, most of my ferrier work is done by me. I've noticed that other troopers in my outfit do the same thing. We're not super period correct with our tools, but at least if a shoe comes off in the field, we can replace it. It certainly helps that one of the best ferriers in the Tennessee area just happens to ride with us and 'schools' every chance he gets.

Sgt Scott

[Becky Morgan]

Re: Shod or Un-Shod and Ferriers

Question from the bleachers here. I can't see it as a whole lot easier to cut off feet than to cut off clinches, and it would seem a lot heavier to haul a sack of feet back to camp to take the shoes off. Not saying that it didn't happen--anything could once or twice, and I'm beginning to think that over the course of the war nearly everything did at some point--but what circumstances would lend themselves to one choice over the other?
Not to be too gruesome here, but wouldn't anything but a very light-boned horse require a substantial ax blade rather than a hatchet or knife?

[RCR001]

Re: Shod or Un-Shod and Ferriers

I can't imagine myself chopping up a horse to get parts off of him, but I guess if I was back in the day, and we rode up on a bunch of slayed horses lying about, I'd order four troopers to dismount and do it.

[Hank Trent]

Re: Shod or Un-Shod and Ferriers

I can't see it as a whole lot easier to cut off feet than to cut off clinches, and it would seem a lot heavier to haul a sack of feet back to camp to take the shoes off. Not saying that it didn't happen--anything could once or twice, and I'm beginning to think that over the course of the war nearly everything did at some point--but what circumstances would lend themselves to one choice over the other?
Not to be too gruesome here, but wouldn't anything but a very light-boned horse require a substantial ax blade rather than a hatchet or knife?

I was wondering about that. Theoretically you could disarticulate the foot with a large knife, but it wouldn't necessarily be quick without some practice or a background in butchering. And then you also have the problem of transporting those heavy hooves. If I had to do it on a regular basis, rather than spending time practicing and making sure somebody had a rope or a sack, I think I'd make sure somebody was carrying some basic farrier tools--because apparently the tools are available somewhere to get the shoe off and put it on another horse, just not where they need to be.

Also, if these are battlefield-killed horses, there's the problem in the late war period of Confederates holding the field often enough to have time to do this. Of course, this might be a Union practice or refer to horses that died of other causes.

Like you, I don't doubt it was done somewhere, sometime, but it just doesn't strike me as the most efficient way to do it on a regular basis, unless I'm missing something.

Just found this, referring to Alexis Godey doing it out west with Fremont, no specific footnote though.

Hank Trent
hanktrent@gmail.com

[Becky Morgan]

Re: Shod or Un-Shod and Ferriers

Hmm, note he "cut off the hooves", not necessarily the feet. If you had a good enough knife, could you peel off the hoof itself, or cut through right at the clinches so the outer part of the hoof and the shoe would come off? That might be quicker and less weighty.
You're right about taking off the foot at the pastern, of course, but I'm also with you on the time frame: how long would you hang around a non-secure area in order to save a few horseshoes if it meant hauling back a heavy load?
Ewww, another thought...how long the horses had been dead. If it were an old battlefield, the job wouldn't be as hard.

[Ken Knopp]

Re: Shod or Un-Shod and Ferriers

Man! I just could not resist this one!! Call me wierd but I have such an item in my collection. Its the complete hoof with the cannon bone, etc. hollowed out of it and horse shoe intact. The shoe is old, complete with heel caulks and has a maker's name on the underside of the shoe- "A Weber". It appears to have been meant to be an ash tray.
I bought it with alot of other stuff from an old, big time CW collector in Memphis in the 1980's. Told me his wife did not want it around anymore. Hmmmmm. Strange, My wife says the same thing! Imagine that! Says, it makes her sick so I have to keep it in my "war room". I suppose its a "guy thing" but I think its cool.

Ken R Knopp

https://www.confederatesaddles.com

[English Doc]

Re: Shod or Un-Shod and Ferriers

British Cavalry during the Penninsular wars had to prove their horse had died or been killed under them in battle (and that they hadn't just sold it to civilians!) by bringing in a hoof (can't sell a three legged horse, although I think I bought one once!)

Ken P

[OldKingCrow]

Re: Shod or Un-Shod and Ferriers

A couple of notes here... I have read several accounts of this, but I'm away from my home so quoting the exact source may take a while, but I have read toward the end of the war 'bout troopers collecting horse feet (cutting them off) just to get the shoes. Don't remember exactly where I read it, but I'll see if I can find it again.

Sgt Scott

DELETED BY POSTER

CJ Rideout

[SouthernPatriot]

Re: Shod or Un-Shod and Ferriers

From what little research I do, I have noticed plenty of farrier/blacksmith shown in confederate ranks. With all the traveling done by cavalry on both sides, any horse that
was not shod would not have lasted very long. As far as resources go, I'm sure that the blacksmiths of the 19th century especially during wartime were just as
inventive as blacksmiths today. Anything of iron could have and would have been utilized to forge shoes with. My personal thoughts are that unshod horses would have
been a rarity for the cavalry on both sides, do to the long distances traveled.

-Daniel Pullen

[SouthernPatriot]

Re: Shod or Un-Shod and Ferriers

A few more thoughts,

The steel alloy used in modern keg shoes is much harder and wears longer than those of iron. The iron shoes made by blacksmiths in the 19th century, although tempered would have been much softer and wore out quicker. However, iron shoes could be heated and extra metal added to reuse the old shoes, or just reshaped. Another note to consider is the actual trade of the blacksmith. Today many more specialized jobs have come from the blacksmith trade, such as the farrier. The blacksmith of the 19th century would not have been just a farrier (horseshoer). They would have been involved in shoeing horses, building camp equipment, repairing equipment, making wagons and wagon wheels, and various other metalworking crafts. The importance of the blacksmith in the civil war regiments when far beyond the smaller task of shoeing horses.

-Daniel Pullen