1st Maine Cav. Saddle I.D.'d .....(sold at auction.....)

[Ken Knopp]

Hey 1st Main guys!...Thought you might like this......

This saddle sold at auction this morning for $3,250. Had some good documents with it too. Here are is the info....
Identified model 1859 McClellan saddle attributed to Private Victor Whittemore of the 1st Maine Cavalry with saddle bags and model 1863 bridle. Victor Whittemore saw action at Brandy Station and Cedar Mountain before his death from disease on September 1,1862. Initials "VW" are scratched on the top side of the left fender skirt. The saddle shows normal wear and aging but no significant losses. The bridle is a later addition and has replaced reins. Included are copies of Private Whittemore’s muster rolls, Record of Death, and widow’s pension papers.


Ken R Knopp

[1st Maine Trooper]

Re: 1st Maine Cav. Saddle I.D.'d .....(sold at auction.....)

Ken,
Where did you come across this gem? I'd like to see some closer detailed photos as it appears some of them might be of a later pattern saddle than from `62.
Dave Myrick

[Ken Knopp]

Re: 1st Maine Cav. Saddle I.D.'d .....(sold at auction.....)

Hey Dave! What you see is all there is to be found except another photo or two. All from the auction site. I will link the web site below. Some repro cav gear also went rather cheap including a Grimsely, a CS Jenifer and a completely equipped Federal mac (varying quality).

http://www.proxibid.com/asp/LotDetail.asp?ahid=2976&aid=28292&lid=7903490#topoflot

Scroll forward or backward below by the auction item # to see about ten saddles that went....some original some not, some bogus some not. Note: The CS wagon saddle is bogus but a couple of the Federal officers saddles were nice. Take a look!

Best,

Ken R Knopp

[Mark Choate]

Re: 1st Maine Cav. Saddle I.D.'d .....(sold at auction.....)

Hi Ken,
Great photos, Ken. That rig looks to be in incredible condition. Are you sure on the date of Victor's death? Brandy Station was in July of '63, I believe.

Actually, this price does not seem to be too high given the price tag on many that you see at the CW show in Nashville.

Mark

[Ken Knopp]

Re: 1st Maine Cav. Saddle I.D.'d .....(sold at auction.....)

Evening Mark!

Well, what they published is all that I know. However, I have found that quite often even family records and memorys are quite faulty. More often, museum provenance and modern research is more accurate and conclusive (albeit sketchy) than what one typically gets from the family. Even with that, one must juxtapose this info against the construction materials and patterns to get a true picture. That is the hard part! Just today I broke the bad news to a collector who paid $3,250 for a late 19th century catalog Texas saddle (that is probably not worth $800) sold to him from a major auction house (with their historian's written description) that it was a "CIVIL WAR CONFEDERATE TEXAS-HOPE SADDLE". The crafty use of their wording will easily lead the buyer down the path they want them to go. Anyway, it was clearly post war in rigging and in some construction materials (hardware, leather tooling). Other components such as the tree was quite questionable too. This is very, very common. In my humble estimation about 75% to 90% of the saddles I have seen that are sold at auction are erroneously presented. However, I really believe that most of the time it is by ignorance (usually wanton-I mean, the information is out there) of the saddle/horse equipment genre rather than intentional.
Your right about the price though. They are going cheaper than before the recession. Cash is king for sure! A nice, i.d.'d saddle in that condition should have gone for at least twice that price. With a little more research one might be able to build a great story around this saddle. Cool saddle!


Ken R Knopp

[VaTrooper]

Re: 1st Maine Cav. Saddle I.D.'d .....(sold at auction.....)

Dang good prices on that repop gear.

[Mark Choate]

Re: 1st Maine Cav. Saddle I.D.'d .....(sold at auction.....)

OUCH!

Boy, Ken, I hope you broke that news over the phone and not in person, ha. Finding out that you just lost nearly $2500 on a saddle buy, could make a fella a bit ornery...........!

I am astounded by your estimate of 75% - 90% of the auction houses having historically erroneous information. I mean, I know the data presented on things like eBay, etc. are oftentimes just flat out wrong, but in a professional auction house, one would think that their reputation would demand a push for facts. But, with this type of item there are so many "old family stories" that may or may not be factual.

Keep this type of thing coming............it is really interesting.

Mark

[1st Maine Trooper]

Re: 1st Maine Cav. Saddle I.D.'d .....(sold at auction.....)

Man I wish I had known about that auction site before. I would love to have that Jennie tree.

Anyway, from the photos, the 1st Maine saddle is a mid war pattern, the bit which is definitly a `63 bit and its attached to a 6 buckle bridle. I also question whether the saddle is complete or was pieced together to make a complete saddle. Look at the way the stirrups are placed through the fenders. They are on backwards. There is no way they could be used in that manner.

Dave Myrick

[Outrider]

Re: 1st Maine Cav. Saddle I.D.'d .....(sold at auction.....)

Man I wish I had known about that auction site before. I would love to have that Jennie tree.

Anyway, from the photos, the 1st Maine saddle is a mid war pattern, the bit which is definitly a `63 bit and its attached to a 6 buckle bridle. I also question whether the saddle is complete or was pieced together to make a complete saddle. Look at the way the stirrups are placed through the fenders. They are on backwards. There is no way they could be used in that manner.

Dave Myrick

Yeah I noticed the stirrups too Dave. Someone dinked around with it at some point. Still though it does look to be in amazing condition overall.
Dang I want everything. Being poor bites.

[Andrew German]

Re: 1st Maine Cav. Saddle I.D.'d .....(sold at auction.....)

To me, some of these ID'd pieces of issue gear are too good to be true. I can understand a federal or Confederate officer's saddle coming home with its owner and carrying the attribution, but an enlisted saddle was government property, and I can't believe it would be sent home in the case of the trooper's death. I was once offered the sidearms of a trooper who had died, which was tempting, but turned out to be a scam.

Whittemore did die of typhoid at Washington in September 1862. The unit had been in the Valley and at Cedar Mt., and somewhat engaged near Brandy Station as Pope withdrew beyond the Rappahannock. If it were his saddle it would be an early war one, which would be fairly easy to verify.

Just the thoughts of a skeptic...
Andrew German

[Ken Knopp]

Re: 1st Maine Cav. Saddle I.D.'d .....(sold at auction.....)

Wow!! Andrew and Dave, Good eyes!! And good info. These saddles sold like this usually are hodgepodged and fooled with by ignorant collectors and auction "historians" but the note on Whittemore's date of death and the type of equips kinda makes one think- does'nt it?

GREAT STUFF!!

Ken R knopp