curry use

[malachi]

O.K. I'm just going to ask this and laugh all you want. What do you guys use your curry combs for? I have read time and time again that they aren't meant to be used directly on the horse, but I have done it many, many times in shedding them out. I use a blade as well, but I have never heard of a 19th century shedding blade. My real question is what did they do with them during the war? I cannot imagine such resources being put into a tool whose sole purpose was to clean out horse brushes. That's what I use the side of trees for. I know about the knockers on them, but that doesn't indicate to me that their use was purely that of brush cleaner. certainly they were employed with a delicate hand on the bodies of horses not as a something you could get away with, but as a matter of regular practice. I have never heard a definitive answer on this so what do you say?
John Gregory Tucker

[Hank Trent]

Re: curry use

GROOMING.

The wisp, the curry-comb, and the brush are the implements used.

1. The wisp is to be used when the horses come in warm from exercise, and the horse is rubbed until dry, from his hind quarters against the hair up to his head.

2. The curry-comb is used when the horse is dry, beginning always on the near side at the hind quarters, its application being in proportion to the length and foulness of the coat; that is, if the coat is close, long, full of dust, and very filthy, use it freely to loosen the coat or the sweat that is dried and fast on the skin and roots of the hair, appearing like a white saltish dust.

In the spring of the year the curry-comb should, whilst the coat is changing, be used judiciously, as a removal of the hair too rapidly, exposes the horses to the sudden changes of temperature. Proceeding from the hind quarters, descend to the quarters, minding not to scratch or injure the horse. The legs below the houghs ase not to be touched with the curry-comb unless the dirt is matted on the joints of the hough, which may be carefully loosened with the curry-comb. The comb works unpleasantly on that part, and must be handled lightly.

Next proceed to the fetlocks, back, loins, flank, belly, shoulders, arms, chest, and neck, omitting no part that the curry-comb can be conveniently applied to; but tender places, thin of hair, or rubbed by the harness, need not be touched; they should be rubbed with the wisp. Observe, therefore, to begin with the currycomb on the near hind quarters and finish with the head, keeping the comb in the right hand. After currying the near side, proceed with the off side: here use the left hand. This done, wisp off those places not touched by the curry-comb; then use the brush. Begin first at the head on the near side, taking the brush in the left hand and the curry-comb in the right; brushing more particularly those parts where the dust is more apt to lodge, proceed down the neck. The scurf of the neck next the head, and the scrag next the mane are difficult to clean. Apply the brush backward and forward on these places, finishing by leaving the coat smooth.

Clear the brush from dust after every two or three strokes with the curry-comb. Proceed in the reverse order used by the currycomb, taking in those parts not touched by the curry-comb, viz., under the chest between the forelegs, the inside of the elbow or arm, and the parts about the fetlocks.

The skin under the flank and between the hind quarters must be free from dust, soft, and so clean as not to soil a white cloth.

The curry-comb begins at the hind quarters, and ends at the head.

The brush begins at the head, and, taking in all parts of the horse, ends at the quarters.

Instructions for Field Artillery, Philadelphia, 1861.

Hank Trent
hanktrent@gmail.com

[AZReenactor]

Re: curry use

Oh great response Hank. Although you now have me wondering where I can get an authentic 1860s wisp for my kit... ;-)

[Hank Trent]

Re: curry use

The wisp should be formed of hay or half worn straw--the former being preferable. Make the wisp about ten inches long, twisting it together till it is as thick as you can grasp. If the hay be harsh, sprinkle it with water, which will cause the dust to adhere to it, and it will also work more pleasantly. A good wisp will serve several times.

The Farmer's Magazine, 1836 (admittedly British and civilian)

Hank Trent
hanktrent@gmail.com

[Ken Knopp]

Re: curry use

This should probably go on the Cavalry Forum......But anyway.....
Well, it just so happens ....I know you folks will think I am making this up....but I just Tuesday sent off a comprehensive article on 19th century curry combs to the NORTH SOUTH TRADER CW Mag. It will include no less that 22 photos of all of the major 19th century military patterns. Some of these combs are quite rare as the reality is that very few intact, non-dug CW combs have survived. The fact is, most that are on display in museums, collections and for sale today at CW shows are post war and NOT of CW manufacture or use.
I was working on this article for some years now but through good fortune I recently came to be the recipient of a huge cache of original documentation on the subject and a few key artifact pieces from an old time collection. As such, it allowed a lot of my cerebral pondering and theories to drop into place and thankfully completed my long suffering effort. At any rate, it will answer your questions and then some....horse folks will be surprised. Here is a couple of teasers.....
- The curry comb was used on the horse until the early 20th century. At that time the British passed an order that it was no longer to be used directly on the horse but only to clean the horse brush. The documentation is a bit sketchy but it appears the Americans followed suit sometime shortly thereafter- albeit it fits and starts.
- The U.S. Army developed its first official pattern (the M1859) in part, as a response to poorly made British combs that they were then importing for the army and also as part of the major turnover of more official equipments- ala the McClellan. The M1859 will surprise everyone. It is a heretofore unrecognized pattern.
- The next pattern was the M1862. it is the more commonly known "Y" comb; a.k.a.... Gov't Comb; Army Comb, etc. it was made in basically two patterns.
- During the war other patterns were contracted - some in significant numbers. Even a patented, leather backed comb....the forerunner of the M1885 was first employed in 1863.
- After the war several distinct patterns emerged,...the M1874, M1879, M1885, then the M1904, M1908, and M1912 and M1913 with a few other patterns sprinkled in between.
- Confederate curry combs were another matter. Most were poorly made knock offs of civilian patterns of the 1840's and 50's or Federal combs. Few, even excavated ones, survive today.
- No less that 360 civilian curry comb patterns were patented between the 1870's and 1930. Most never saw production but only prototypes. Still, the fact that so many were made- particularly between 1870 and 1890, parallels the peak and subsequent decline of the American "riding market" and horse & buggy days.
- As a side bar....In addition to the patterns noted in the article I include a text box on how to identify CW era and earlier combs. There are ways to do so.

When I get word on when the mag will expect to publish it I will make an announcement....on the Cav Forum. Till then.....here is a teaser photo.

This photo is NOT in the article. However, it shows a sample of a Hotchkiss & Sons 1850's comb from the steam ship Arabia, that was a pattern "borrowed" from an English patent made by Carpenter & Co. of Willenhall England. It was this basic pattern, called the "333", and made by the Brits and copied by Americans that was considered by army ordnance officers as the very best available and thus widely issued to American troops in the 1850's and into the CW. It came from several makers (most notably A.A. Hotchkiss & Sons of Sharon Valley, Conn. ) in wide variances. I believe the other comb, a quite common "open-back" pattern, is also a Hotchkiss make but I cannot be sure.
Hotchkiss was probably America's largest manufacturer of curry combs in the 1840's through 1860. If A.A. Hotchkiss & Sons is familiar to you then you are sharp. This same firm that originated the famous Hotchkiss Shell.



Ken R Knopp

https://www.confederatesaddles.com

[Hank Trent]

Re: curry use

Very cool info. Thanks!

The curry comb was used on the horse until the early 20th century. At that time the British passed an order that it was no longer to be used directly on the horse but only to clean the horse brush. The documentation is a bit sketchy but it appears the Americans followed suit sometime shortly thereafter- albeit it fits and starts.

I'll just say, I'm gobsmacked, as the Brits would say. I've never ever in my life heard the slightest murmurings that one shouldn't use a curry comb on a horse, the only caution being not to use it on the legs and of course to use it gently when the horse has a short summer coat. Wow. I need to work on my 21st century first-person impression. :D

Hank Trent
hanktrent@gmail.com

[wavey1us]

Re: curry use

Ken,
As always good info. I am looking at a 1935 manual (Horsemanship and Horsemastership) from the US Army and they still mention the use of the curry comb on the horse. Although when you read the description, it reads more as the curry comb as of a hand held variety vice a comb with a handle similar to your picture.
" The article maybe used to groom animals that have long, thick coats to remove caked mud, and to loosen matted scruf and dirt in the hair.
The currycomb produces the best effect when applied gently in small circles rather than with pressure and in long strokes, like a brush. It should never be used on the legs from the kness down nor about the head. The use of the currycomb should be prohibited in grooming animals recently clipped or that have a fine, thin coat of hair. In most cases the hair may be loosened and ruffled sufficiently with the drying cloth or a compact handful of bedding or hay."

[Ken Knopp]

Re: curry use

Thank you gents!!

Despite the curry comb being a rather specialized, "narrow" matter of military material culture, at this time I would rather not toss away the best parts of the article in hopes that some of you might be inclined to obtain a full copy when available (please forgive me) but here is the opening paragraph that provides a bit more clarity on the immediate question....

"If there is one article of military material culture that has languished in obscurity and neglect it is certainly the curry comb. Overwhelmed by confusing multiple patterns, hampered by little historical documentation, even less understanding and no respect as a collector’s item, the lowly curry comb has sadly been relegated to the junk box of indifference. To the “equine challenged” the curry comb is of unclear purpose appearing archaic if not downright abusive to horses. Yet for centuries the rubbing down of the horse with curry combs and hand brushes was regarded as essential to the animals general health and condition as well as appearance. As a primary grooming tool the curry comb was originally used to remove caked mud, dried manure, sweat, matted and dried hair from the coat and as a means to discourage parasites and finally, to massage the underlying muscles. This is how it was generally employed by the military of the 19th century. However, to prevent skin injury by the early 20th century British military orders and there is evidence the Americans too, dictated that the curry comb no longer be used directly on the horse but only as a tool to clean the horse brush while grooming. 1."

Let me also throw in a couple more photos......

1. M1862 Curry Comb a.k.a. as the “US’, “Army”, “Government” or “Y” Comb. This is the early pattern made by the Hotchkiss & Sons Co. These were sometimes marked No. “76" and “US” on the tang handle. Unfortunately, the wrought iron shank handles had the tendency to break. Later fwar time models of this comb were improved using up to two rivets to attach the iron shank to the comb back and were often marked with “Cast Steel” and “Army Combs” on the “Y”. Courtesy Howard Crouch. This one was dug in northern Virginia and is obviously missing its wood handle. Despite at least one hundred and fifty thousand (likely many more) being made, intact, unexcavated examples are rare birds indeed.

2. The Carpenter & Co. “333" curry comb made by the English firm of (James) Carpenter & Co. of Willenhall England probably dates back to the 1830's or perhaps earlier. It was a common, well known commercial pattern in the 19th century and considered the very best quality available. Issued and used as a model for Federal government contract combs prior to (1850's) and during the early part of the war, its general pattern was also widely copied by American makers for civilian sales. This comb, made sometime prior to 1845 is hefty and well made. The back is japanned and has the firm name and “333" on the center brass plate and at the handle. Note the knockers. Author’s collection. This comb is very rare. I know of only this one so marked. Others variations by the Carpenter firm and by Hotchkiss are around but very few in number.

*It seems strange to me that despite the huge numbers of these small, simple items that were made so few complete examples have survived. Certainly, it is due to their utilitarian nature but still it surprising at times.

The newly "rediscovered" M1859 is as described in the 1862 Federal Ordnance Manual. Forgive me here but I will save the release of its heretofore unrecognizable (as far I know) appearance for the publishing of the article. Actually, it's so obvious it is surprising. I am sorry but thank you for this opportunity to talk about this! I know I am wierd but items like this have always held a facination for me.

Ken R KNopp

https://www.confederatesaddles.com

[The Egyptian Homeguard]

Re: curry use

Ken Once again you prove I'm an infant in my knowledge... Sounds like a wisp should be easy to make out of an old corn broom... hummm... another winter project? Z

[malachi]

Re: curry use

My thanks to all who responded so fully to my original query. I have been riding for many years now, and always considered myself a pretty good caretaker of my horses. This was just one of those questions I could never resolve, and I never wanted to appear as an idiot by using a curry brush on my animals in front of those who might or might not know its intended purpose. Once again, thank you for your input, and thank you for allowing a newby to take part in this wonderful site.
with warmest regards,
John Gregory Tucker

[Ken Knopp]

Re: curry use

Well fellas...........I am told the next issue of NORTH SOUTH TRADER’S CIVIL WAR (Vol 35, No. 3) due out at the end of February will include my comprehensive article on 19th (and early 20th) century military curry combs.

And,...."exclusive" to the AC Cavalry Forum I am posting a pre-publication photo of the heretofore unknown M1859 pattern Federal Curry Comb! (see below).

As for the article......It will include no less that 22 photos of all of the major military patterns. And, believe it or not- there were at least nine significant and distinct patterns. Some of these combs are quite rare- others were not but are illusive or, they will fool you. For example, despite tens of thousands being manufactured the reality is that very few intact, non-dug CW issue combs have survived. In fact, most on display in museums, collections and for sale today at CW shows are post war commercial combs and NOT of CW manufacture or use.

I have been collecting and struggling to write about this subject for an article for some years but through Devine intervention (literally GOD, in my opinion, helped me with this) and good fortune I recently came to be the recipient of a huge cache of original documentation as well as a few key artifact pieces from an old time collection. As such, it re-shaped and crystalized my research and theories to drop into place and thankfully completed my long suffering effort.

Curry Combs!!?? How trivial! Well, perhaps, but there are very few articles of 19th century American military material culture that have not had a study or something published about them. Isn’t it at least interesting so little has been written about this subject? At any rate, most historians and collectors will be delighted that this long neglected collectible of American military material culture is now documented and getting its due! More importantly...I promise that you will be surprised!
Get the article and you will learn..........(some of this has been EXCLUSIVELY posted here before but again).....(for example)..........

- Prior to 1859 the U.S. Army purchased commercially made combs for issue to troops. In the 1850's they preferred to acquire and often purchased substantial numbers of British made “333" commercial combs originated by the firm of James Carpenter (Carpenter & Tildesly) of Willenhall England. Why? These English combs were considered the very best quality then available.
- The U.S. Army developed its first official pattern (the M1859) in part, as a response to poorly made British combs that they were then importing and also as part of the army’s major turnover to more official pattern equipments- ala the McClellan. The M1859 will surprise everyone. It is a heretofore unrecognized pattern.

- The next pattern was the M1862. it is the more commonly known "Y" comb; a.k.a.... Gov't Comb; Army Comb, etc. it was made in quite large numbers in basically two patterns. Commercial knock-offs of this comb were made for decades after the war and still are today. However, war-time patterns can now be easily identified.

- During the war other patterns were contracted - some in significant numbers. For example, the Sarah Jane Wheeler Curry Comb was patented by Connecticut’s very first patent granted to a woman and made in large numbers for issue in the eastern theater. Even a patented, leather backed comb....”The Rockwell flexible back comb” was the forerunner of the M1885, M1904 and the M1912 was first employed in 1863.

- After the war several distinct military patterns emerged,...the M1874, M1879, M1885 during the Indian War era, then the M1904, M1908, and M1912 and M1913 with a few other patterns sprinkled in between. Several of these patterns were originated or developed by cavalry officers. Limited numbers were made of most of these. Patent litigation wrecked the M1879 pattern which ushered in the more well known leather backed M1885.

- Confederate curry combs were another matter. A lack of iron foundries limited production. Confederate patterns were very inconsistent. The Augusta Arsenal made significant numbers of Confederate curry combs for shipment all over the South. However, their poor construction caused a fracture in the CS Ordnance Dept. which resulted in the resignation of one of the South’s key ordnance officers. Most Confederate combs were contract-made by the individual arsenals and were poorly made knock offs of civilian patterns of the 1840's and 50's or Federal combs. Few, even excavated ones, survive today.

- No less that 360 civilian curry comb patterns were patented between the 1870's and 1930. Most never saw production but only prototypes. Still, the fact that so many were made- particularly between 1870 and 1890, parallels the peak and subsequent decline of the American "riding market" and horse & buggy days.

- The military curry comb was used on the horse until the early 20th century. At that time the British passed an order that it was no longer to be used directly on the horse but only to clean the horse brush. The documentation is a bit sketchy but it appears the Americans followed suit sometime shortly thereafter- albeit in fits and starts.

- As a side bar....In addition to the patterns noted in the article I include a text box and photo on how to identify CW era Government “Y” combs and other pre war combs. Yes, there are ways to do so.


Interested in learning more about these? I have no stake in magazine sales but I am as proud of this effort as any I have undertaken for a long time. You can order a single copy of the magazine that contains the article right now by calling........540- 672- 4845........ Ask for the “Curry Comb” article by name or, by its issue ....Vol. 35, No. 3... the one “currently” coming to press “right now”!

Thank you for indulging me!!

Ken R Knopp

https://www.confederatesaddles.com

[Lance Stifle]

Re: curry use

Curry combs; some have noted that the title "curry" comes from the old English term "to give it curry", that's to say a good going over, as in a strong taste of effort.

I for one would like to watch someone applying a curry comb to a horses head...good entertainment.
The rubber variant around the neck just under the head, is preferred by all the horse owners I know, fingernails are even easier above the eyes and around the ears where most mud and dirt is only light anyway.

Hank, you might want to get some counselling about your wisp, speech impediment can be a real problem nowadays.
(It's a joke not an affront)

Over here when we pack on the horse what gear we need, most of us rely on a blunt metal tail comb for the job, gently applied almost paralell to the skin it's perfect for removing dried mud, and flat and easier to pack away than a curry comb; in more sensitive areas and close to bone a piece of tree bark, or fingernails do fine.

Kim Stewart-Gray
"I am with the South in death, in victory or defeat...I never owned a Negro and care nothing for them,
but these people have been my friends and have stood up to me on all occasions."
Patrick Cleburne 1860.

[Ken Knopp]

Re: curry use

IMPORTANT DISCOVERY!!!

For those of you that read my curry comb article or those few of you that (are strange like me and) have an interest in curry combs I have had to fortune to make an important discovery that I would like to make exclusive to the AC. If you read the article you will remember that the Allegheny Arsenal made their own curry combs for a short time early in the war. Before the official “US” or “Gov’t” comb was decided upon this “open-back” pattern was preferred by some members of the Federal Ordnance Bureau. However, the Chief of Ordnance Gen J. W Ripley firmly decided upon the “US” pattern as made by Hotchkiss & Co. because “the steel of the Hotchkiss pattern was lighter and gives a cleaner look and better finish”. Many tens or perhpas hudreds of thousadns of the "US" or "Y" pattern comb were made during the war but in the end, only 13,318 of the Allegheny Arsenal combs were made and none after June 1863. In my research I could not come up with a surviving artifact or a solid description of this Allegheny Arsenal pattern.....that is, till now.

Since the publication of the article I was contacted by several people sharing combs with me. One grouping sent to me were three combs dug by Don Mindemann in Maryland, near an area called the Binard defensive line, the Northern line of defenses for Harpers Ferry. Don tells me they were dug (on private property) about the mid 1990's. All were found in a rather small area in somewhat of a line- possibly a picket line. Other "bits" and pieces of cavalry or artillery usage were found in the same area. Hee is the kicker....not only do these perfectly fit the limited description of the A.A. comb but they are marked “Allegheny Arsenal”!! How cool is this?!! So now we know what the Civil War Allegheny Arsenal pattern looked like!


Another person sent me another pre war English, Carpenter & Co. 1842 patented comb their #1286. See Photo enclosed.

And one more.....although not Civil War, someone else sent me a unique leather backed “wired comb patented in 1883 by Charles & Joseph Knopp. No doubt, somewhere way back I am related to these guys. Which may finally explain why I have such a weird fascination with curry combs.


Ken R Knopp

https://www.confederatesaddles.com

[Ken Knopp]

Re: curry use

For those interested.......the aforementioned article on curry combs (with updates) is now available for FREE on my web site!! Also available there now is the recently published article..."The Confederate Horse in Camp & Field".

Both are now readily accessible at no cost on my web site...

https://www.confederatesaddles.com

Click on "Feature Articles by Ken R Knopp"

Also.....I just acquired this 1840's (?) period English "trowel" curry comb. Note the ornate handle. These were commonly copied by American makers prior too and during the war. They are very commonly dug in CW sites. First time I have ever seen a non-dug specimen of this pattern.

BTW, I also recently posted some new cavalry items "for sale" including some original period bits, rosettes, horse brushes and more. Look at the home page under "Relics & Reproductions" Of course, there is alot of other stuff too including clothing, accoutrements, etc., etc.

Ken R Knopp

[Mark Choate]

Re: curry use

Well, Ken, even though I do kid you a bit on your "curry fetish", I must agree that this is a beautiful piece. I cannot believe the condition that it appears to be in! Would you be able to post a photo of the underside? I would like to see the tooth pattern.

thanks,
Mark