Bayonets for picket pins?

[ButtermilkRanger]

I alluded to this on the rope halter thread, but wanted to throw it out there for you guys to ponder. Especially in keeping with Ken's opinion on "less is more". Several years ago Darryl Robertson (who lives in the area), met a guy who had done extensive relic hunting on various sites related to the Red River campaign. If memory serves, this guy had put together a sort of private museum to hold all the different relics he'd accumulated over the years. Anyway, this guy was talking to Darryl about a Confederate cavalry site he'd hunted. I believe it was documented to Tom Green's brigade of mostly Texas cavalry.

Anyway, the guy showed Darryl the collection of cavalry picket pins he'd found still staked in the ground in orderly rows. What was surprising was that he found quite a few socket bayonets placed in the ground in those same rows as well. The relic hunter had no real explanation for the phenomenon. As a side note, I believe the research leading to this find was that Green's cavalry had been surpised in this location by Federals and had left very hastily, which is why the relic hunter was detecting there in the first place.

However, considering that 3 band enfields and Infantry accoutrements were issued to the Trans-Mississippi cavalry prior to that campaign, would it be safe to assume that bayonets were also issued as part of the larger package? If so, can we also theorize that enterprising cavalrymen realized early on that these bayonets could be pressed into service as picket pins? To me, it would make perfect sense.

I've long thought that the picket pin is under represented in the hobby and was much more prevelant as the most common way of campaigning with horses than the more commonly seen picket rope.

[Mark Choate]

Re: Bayonets for picket pins?

This is fascinating, Larry.

Not just the usage of the bayonet as a picket pin (I have heard of this) but also from what would have been found at this campsite where Green's troopers were surprised and what all might have been left. I am curious, did he mention the distance between these pins in this line? Did he tell Daryl of any other discoveries there?

thanks,
Mark

[ButtermilkRanger]

Re: Bayonets for picket pins?

Mark,

It's been so long that I don't remember, but it seems like there was some mention about the pattern, distance, etc. What I need to do is get with Darryl and see if we can look this old feller up and maybe take a road trip to visit him. I'd like to know more about it myself. What I've often pondered is how the rope would have been attached to the pin. My theory is probably that it would have been slipped through the bayonet socket and a knot tied in the end of the rope. This would have allowed the rope to swivel but still stay inside the bayonet. But I'm just grasping at straws on this one.

[Blair]

Re: Bayonets for picket pins?

Perhaps a questrion should be asked at this point,
How many socket bayonets would a Cav, unit have on hand to use a picket pins?
I think the idea is sound, but the socket bayonet is an an Infantry arm. Would a Cav. unit had many on hand to use as picket pins?
Not many Cav. weapons allow for socket bayonets.
Just a thought on my part,

[Forrestcavalryman]

Re: Bayonets for picket pins?

Mr. Tyler, it is true that cavalry arms are not fitted for socket bayonets. However, many Western Theater C.S. cavalrymen carried full three-band infantry longarms, and according to Mr.Knopp, there are records of bayonets in arms reports. This is an interesting idea though, since I have put some though into makin/purchasing a shotgun bayonet, I may have found a reason to get one!

[Blair]

Re: Bayonets for picket pins?

Andrew, what ever you name is,

How many three band socket bayonets "might" have been available to a Cav. unit to be used as picket pins?
I seem to have missed this point.
Of course, I'm pretty stupid about such things, any ideas on your part are appreciated?

[Forrestcavalryman]

Re: Bayonets for picket pins?

I did not mean to insult or offend you Mr. Tyler. I was just pointing out that there is documentation that Western C.S. cavalry did have infantry equipment, and it would make sense that they would use those bayonets as picket pins, the only other thing would be to attatch them to said three-banders and use them as spears, which does not make any sense at all.

[ButtermilkRanger]

Re: Bayonets for picket pins?

I don't think anyone suggested that they were prevalent. I just posted the original thread because I thought it was interesting information that hasn't been discussed very much. My point was that it's something that, given the circumstances of the relic site and the layout of the find, suggests that it may have been a practive of those units where the bayonet may have been issued. As I said before, if memory serves me correctly without the documentation in my hand, the 3 band musket was issued in large numbers to cavalry in the Red River campaign. We also know that 3 banders were issued to other commands in other theaters. It was relatively common for accoutrements to be issued with the weapons. I'm not sure it's so far fetched to think that bayonets were issued with the Enfields in some commands, probably as a package deal. Although everyone on this board should be well aware of the fact that western Confederate cavalry was deployed more as mounted Infantry than traditional cavalry, I can still see the point that if issued, most cavalrymen would have probably discarded the bayonet as useless (like the saber), UNLESS they found another, more utilitarian use for it... as a picket pin.

Of course this is all just theory and none of it matters a great deal anyway. How many modern cavalrymen even have horses that will picket on pins anymore? Most units either tether to trees or lug around long picket ropes.

[Jimmayo]

Re: Bayonets for picket pins?

I saw a P53 bayonet on a dealers web site a couple of months ago. It was advertised as a CS picket pin found in a cav camp in the western theater. It had about two radial twist to the blade in an effort to make it hard to pull out of the ground. I tried to find it again on the web site but it was taken off. Just thought I would mention it.

[brown]

Re: Bayonets for picket pins?

Whil ethere is a ton of proof that infantry weapons were used by CS cav in the West and Trans-Miss, and even of bayonets issued at some level, I find it hard to assume that all or most of the mounted men would have had them without more records, as large portions of the infantry in the AoT did not have bayonets.
Great info, but careful with the assumptions and all-or-nothing tendancies.

[Blair]

Re: Bayonets for picket pins?

A very good friend of mine found a "Richmond" made socket bayonet used by a poor black man to support his cain fishing pole.
It had been driven into the ground by the soft iron socket, instead of the hardened elbow of the bayonet blade.
This really screwed up the socket from being able to be used on a three band length Musket, or anything else for that matter. It was still a great relic for what it was, and could have been corrected. All of this is not much different than a socket bayonet being used as a picket pin. IMHO.
I still have to question the number, and amount of socket bayonets available to the Cav. where these items would have been in sufficient quantities to use them for this purpose?

[malachi]

Re: Bayonets for picket pins?

I applaud the question above about the picket pin spacing. While the relic hunters provide us with a host of really good stuff, i would like to think that proper measurements were made prior to removal of the pins, along with sketches, photos, orientation etc...
Those pins represented a moment frozen in time which may never again be available to anyone. That might seem trivial to many, but there is a great responsibility to document such things, and i hope an opportunity wasn't lost there.
with respect,
John Gregory Tucker

[TexCavly]

Re: Bayonets for picket pins?

Perhaps one man who was issued a 3 bander w/bayonet already had a picket pin, could he not have simply given it (the bayonet) to the the poor sod who had neither?

[ButtermilkRanger]

Re: Bayonets for picket pins?

When I originally posted this thread, I had no intention of anybody jumping to the conclusion that using bayonets as picket pins was a common occurance. Nor did I insinuate that an over abundance of bayonets were issued to the cavalry. I only theorized that, considering the nature of where and how the relic hunter found the bayonets, MAYBE those bayonets in that location were used in that manner. Like Blair mentioned above, bayonets and all sorts of other relics have been used for purposes other than for what they were intended. Camp Moore, Louisiana was the largest Confederate training camp in the state. In their museum is a site-dug bayonet that has been heated and bent into a hook. It is documented to have been used as a hook to drag bodies during the disease epidemic that struck the camp in '62 that killed over 800 recruits. That doesn't mean that everyone should be turning their bayonets into meat hooks, only that at least one bayonet was modified for that purpose. Same way with the picket pin bayonets, if the relic hunter's theory is even correct in the first place.

[Jerry Ross]

Re: Bayonets for picket pins?

Hello all,
I was just visiting John Walsh at Fort Donelson relics and he was showing me the records of ( U.S. mounted infantry )Wilder's brigade and the guns they had. Although they had the spencer rifles,not carbines, they also had listed bayonets w/ Austrian Lorezen rifles too. Don't know if they used them meat hooks or picket pins or for spear chucking. HAHAHAH. Just some more mix and match type of information.