Bayonets for picket pins?

[ButtermilkRanger]

Re: Bayonets for picket pins?

I read a first person account from a member of (I believe) the 4th Kentucky Mounted Infantry (CS) and he makes mention of full Infantry accoutrements including knapsacks being issued. There were some sketches of the unit in action in the book and they show men fully accoutred as regular infantry riding horses, complete with bayonets and knapsacks. I believe the drawings were post-war to accompany the manuscript, but I don't believe they were modern artists' renditions.

I learned many years ago that when it comes to research, especially in the western Confederate cavalry, the only absolute is that there are no absolutes.

What separates us from the farbs is that we've done the research and we should know what was period everyday correct and what was the anomoly. But what we, as authentics that's been around awhile, have to remember is that it's our duty to make sure that we stress to the newbies that its the PEC that we should be trying to portray. So many times, people come on here, read a thread about some new piece of research or historical theory that's been posted (like bayonets for meat hooks and picket pins), and then think they can just run out and start using it in the hobby. I'm pretty sure that Green's cavalry used bayonets for picket pins at least once. We know a member of the 3rd Texas cavalry had matching holsters and Mexican trousers of jaguar skin. We also know that a Lieutenant in Grierson's command was riding a "spotted horse" at the battle on the Comite River against Powers' Confederates at the Battle of Clinton, LA. But none of those things were common or everyday correct and we shouldn't be seeing any of it in our ranks.

[Jimmayo]

Re: Bayonets for picket pins?

Another thing to remember that one or two bayonets were usually pretty easy to come by. From the number found they were frequently lost.

[Ken Knopp]

Re: Bayonets for picket pins?

Whoa! Before we go any further with this. It seems apparent to me that NO-ONE here is making the case that bayonets were common items as picket pins among CS cavalry. (Gentlemen, please read these posts carefully before responding.) Larry had to make the same point at several times now that his original post should be regarded as unique to that unit, time and place. Beyond that, there appears to be no preponderance of documentation or evidence that bayonets were commonly used as picket pins. Nuff said.
While there is no doubt that they were used for a variety of camp and military uses and that the captured bayonet was available to the cavalryman (to varying degrees) and, that some bayonets were found in cavalry commands- that is about the extent of the understanding. Without more documentation or a way to research this aspect (difficult and largely anecdotal at best) I think the point has been amply made that the bayonet as a picket pin was probably not a P.E.C. “Thang”. However, it does bring up another interesting question.
How often do you think a picket pin was used at all in Confederate cavalry? Was it more or less in the east (ANV), west (AOT, AOM, etc.) and TM? I should say here that there is very little documentation for the manufacture and issue of CS picket pins during the war at least as far as I have ever seen. So, how did the trooper picket his horse? Did he use a picket pin (issue or captured), did they tie their horses to trees, company picket lines, hobbles, ......what does your reading or “gut” tell us about this? This is a question I have often thought about. What do you think?


Ken R Knopp

[VaTrooper]

Re: Bayonets for picket pins?

My wife is from Meigs County Ohio and her uncle has a bayonet with this kind of oral history. It is claimed that this bayonet was picked up from the picketline of John Hunt Morgans camp. It's non-dug and has a socket that has wear marks suggesting a rope was tied in it. Was it common? Doubt it.

[ButtermilkRanger]

Re: Bayonets for picket pins?

However, it does bring up another interesting question.
How often do you think a picket pin was used at all in Confederate cavalry? Was it more or less in the east (ANV), west (AOT, AOM, etc.) and TM? I should say here that there is very little documentation for the manufacture and issue of CS picket pins during the war at least as far as I have ever seen. So, how did the trooper picket his horse? Did he use a picket pin (issue or captured), did they tie their horses to trees, company picket lines, hobbles, ......what does your reading or “gut” tell us about this? This is a question I have often thought about. What do you think?


Ken R Knopp

Ken,

I don't have anything to go on here, but my gut instinct. I haven't researched the ANV enough to qualify an opinion. But my own opinion is that in the western Confederacy, picketing horses was probably "catch as catch can". To be perfectly honest, I think tying to trees might have been about as common as anything else. We know that picket pins were used to some degree and I've used them extensively myself. I like them. But they are just more added weight and bulk to my rig. I have left them at home on a number of occasions when I know trees are going to be readily available to picket to.

It's probably no surprise that I'm not a huge fan of a company level picket rope. I personally don't see a cavalry unit on the move lugging along a big bulky picket rope. Maybe they did lug along lariats and strung them together, but if you're going to do that, why not just picket with pins? In my experience, we have less broken equipment, horse fights, etc. when we either picket or tie to trees. I've done it all in the last 20 years and am not saying that my way is the right way.

You asked for a gut feeling and that's mine. I remember a pic posted on here of a group of Federal wagons unhitched and at rest. There was little uniformity there. Many of the mules were tied to the wagon tongues or wherever and at least one horse was tethered by the leather lead strap to a wooden stake driven into the ground. If the federals were this haphazard, how much moreso would the Confederats have been?

[malachi]

Re: Bayonets for picket pins?

Gentlemen, I have seen a photo of a confederate picket pin shown in Mr. Knopp's book as well as on his site which consists of the pin proper with the head forged fairly flat and a ring piercing it. I cannot however tell if it is just a hole punched or a slot filed in. If any of you have ever seen this piece in profile and could illuminate me on this I would greatly appreciate it. A friend has asked me to forge one for him and I need this detail to complete it.
with warmest regards,
John Tucker

[ButtermilkRanger]

Re: Bayonets for picket pins?

John,

Several years ago I saw one of this type on a CW relic auction site that was supposedly Confederate issue. IMO it was more likely civilian manufacture. I've made several like this myself, but they're usually more trouble than they're worth to use and I don't like them. But to answer your question, I've had best results by cutting the slot putting in the ring, and then forging or welding it back shut and filing down the edges. The only way to insert the ring with a punched hole is to cut the ring and weld it back together and I've never had a ring stand up to the abuse a horse can give it once it's been cut. The ring also doesn't swivel and it doesn't take long before a horse has tethered himself up short. One that happens, he usually can just pull the pin up with his head and trot off. Way too much trouble for me in the field. I prefer a pin with a swivel.

The best civilian/CS style pen I've ever made was modeled after another on a similar auction site. This one was more like the US issue pin. It had a crevase cut or beaten into the upper part of the pin. I heated a piece of round bar and forged it into an S-shape around the crevase. The top was heated and mushroomed out a little. I've used them extensively and they work pretty good.

[Mark Choate]

Re: Bayonets for picket pins?

Larry and all,

Reading your comment on the horse tethering itself up on the pin and pulling it out reminded me of the fact that you will have more success with keeping the mount from pulling out if you tie the rope (cotton preferably) to either of his front feet. Even if there is no tethering effect, the end result will be better. The neck and rear legs are so much stronger and they will tend to not pull it out as much if you break them to tying to the front foot.

regards,
Mark

[Lance Stifle]

Re: Bayonets for picket pins?

Gentlemen
for what it's worth the Australian experience as early as the late 1800's was to pin and tie the foreleg (soft hobble rope around the small lower pastern) and hind leg on the same side in the abscence of tree tethering.

I assume though that it wasnt invented over here.

Lance Stifle
(Ken Stewart-Gray)
"I am with the South in life or in death, in victory or in defeat . . . I believe the North is about to wage a brutal and unholy war on a people who have done them no wrong, in violation of the Constitution and the fundamental principles of government. They no longer acknowledge that all government derives its validity from the consent of the governed. They are about to invade our peaceful homes, destroy our property, and inaugurate a servile insurrection, murder our men and dishonor our women. We propose no invasion of the North, no attack on them, and only ask to be left alone."

- Major General Patrick Cleburne C.S.A.

[Paul L Muller]

Re: Bayonets for picket pins?

HI ; the csa pin has a punched hole and the ring is passed thru and welded. The federal pin has the figure 8 type ring and is indeed [in my exsperiance] better pin. I stopped used pins at events but do use them to tie out the milk cow and a few steers to keep to grass eaten down. the swivel is better by far. The welding of the ring on the csa pin takes practice, but will take some abuse, but generally a poorer design. plm

[ButtermilkRanger]

Re: Bayonets for picket pins?

Larry and all,

Reading your comment on the horse tethering itself up on the pin and pulling it out reminded me of the fact that you will have more success with keeping the mount from pulling out if you tie the rope (cotton preferably) to either of his front feet. Even if there is no tethering effect, the end result will be better. The neck and rear legs are so much stronger and they will tend to not pull it out as much if you break them to tying to the front foot.

regards,
Mark

I know quite a few guys out west where trees are scarce that picket to the leg and I know it works much better with some practice. I believe that by the end of the Indian Wars, the US cav had adopted this practice and were issuing a single hobble type strap for the foreleg. But so far, I haven't found any documentation that this was done in the CW period. Cotton rope is definitely the softest and best way to go, but wouldn't hemp be more authentic? I don't know that I've seen any period references to the use of cotton rope. On the other hand, I've had this discussion with others in the past and I'm not ruling the use of cotton out. Does anyone here have any references to the use of cotton ropes in the period?

Paul, I've tried it with punching the hole and welding the ring, splitting the iron and re-welding the pin, the figure 8 style ring, and the S-shape. All have held up fairly well, even the welded ring, but in the end, the welded ring was the weakest. Nothing compares to the swivel. I must be one of the last cavalrymen alive who still pickets horses with pins and likes it.

[Mark Choate]

Re: Bayonets for picket pins?

Larry,

Any type of rope could have been used, but cotton would have been as authentic as hemp as it has been around for many years prior to the War. They began mass producing it in the south in the early 1840's and Lord knows there was plenty of raw materials.

As far as the front leg, this is the weaker muscle set of the horse behind the rear leg, neck and jaw muscles which was known and used by horsemen long before.

Mark

[The Egyptian Homeguard]

Re: Bayonets for picket pins?

Just as with anything a horse must become accustom to being picketed... I've a gelding that can run in 2 way hobbles faster than a man can run to catch him, he gets picketed. I also knew of a wise old cavalry gelding that was smart enough to back track his picket rope, grasp the pin in his teeth and pull it up out of the ground. He never went far, but just naturally rotated himself to fresh grass... Give time many horses will out think us and they have nothing but time... Z

[Mark Choate]

Re: Bayonets for picket pins?

Zack,

You are absolutely correct and it is amazing what they can learn to do. I have never had any of the "hobble-hurdlers" but I have heard many stories like yours of how fast some can move when hobbled. They can learn quickly. I have one here at home that has just learned how to unlatch the gate into the paddock. I don't know how he's doing it, but he is.

Mark

[Paul L Muller]

Re: Bayonets for picket pins?

When I was cowboying, I was in the foothills and by dark was getting readyb to spend the night, so I hobbed my horses two front feet together and turned him out with the cattle. In the morning He was gone...5 hours later I found him by the stock trailer. He covered all the rough ground AND cleared three fences to boot! I am still in awh!! plm