jenifer seat

[malachi]

One more question for the evening. I built my own mcclellan a couple of years ago, and frankly can see why those people shot at each other so long. I don't like the upright position with your legs almost straight out beside you. It was explained to me by a well known saddle maker that the idea was to keep the bulk of the rider's and accoutrement's masses as well centered as possible on the horse. I know therer are several jenifer tree makers out there, but i want to know if they cuase you to assume a similar position as the mac, or do your legs rest forward like in a modern troopers saddle? I for the life of me have never felt secure in a mac seat, owing not to seat depth, but having no real leverage with my feet pushing back in the seat.
with regards,
John Gregory Tucker

[Mark Choate]

Re: jenifer seat

John,

I personally favor the Jennie seat to the Mac, but I will warn you that if you do not feel secure in the Mac, you will certainly not feel good with the Jennie. The duck-tail cantle gives less back-side support than the McClellan as it slopes away rather than up. But there is a slightly different position to the legs.

Mark

[TexCavly]

Re: jenifer seat

Mr. Tucker I'm sure that you've thought of taking your stirrups up some, also I've had this problem and was instructed to ride with my heels pointing down with only the balls of my feet in the stirrups. I'll sometimes forget and shove my feet all the way in creating a really bumpy ride. Plus your UP saddle being English in design will have the stirrup hangers farther up for more springy action in the legs. I'd be willing to bet that's why you feel less secure in the Mac.

[ethan harrington]

Re: jenifer seat

Mr.Tucker,
I own and ride about 6 differnent period saddles from mac to civi some are originals and some are really good repro's my leg length and seat depth are all differnent , I also ride with my girth just snug and not as tight as I can get it. I currently ride two different mounts a standerdbred and a foxtrotter. the latter is a mutch smoother ride and I don't have to pay attention to ridding that mutch if that makes sence. I personally think It has alot to do with how you sit in your seat and how you ride. Is the rider a horseman or a sack of potatoes bouncing around on a horse. Alot has to do with how you were your accutrements, The old saying "Less is More" is really true. Get them up around your belly button and not your hips " Not saying that you do" and they and you will perform better and last longer because they are not rubbing on something that they are not supossed to be.
This is just my 2cents.

Thanks
Ethan Harrington

[malachi]

Re: jenifer seat

i hear and appreciate your suggestions. I do have a good postured seat when riding, and i have tried several different lengths with the stirrup leathers. it seems that the further forward the leathers attatch to the tree, the more" triangulated" i feel. like a three legged stool if that makes any sense at all. it looks in photos to me that the placement of the stirrup hangers is further forward relative to the seat's center on a jenifer than on a mac, and that is my hope still. the low ducktail actually might help in that i can shift further to the rear of the saddle as i do in my U.P.
thanks again for your feedback,
john gregory tucker

[U.S Dragoon]

Re: jenifer seat

Mr Tucker, do yo use the same style of stirrups on your trooper saddle as you do on your mcclellan? yes this may sound odd but the type of stirrup will alter the feeling of your seat, i mostly ride a 1847 Grimsley , and i have found that with the M1833 Brass stirrups my seat feels secure , but when i tried riding in wooden stirrups (off of a mcclellan) i felt less secure, i guess you can call me a veteran of saddlery since ive rode and owned over 16 differnt styles of saddles till i found the one that suited me the best, the jenifier seat may or may not help you with your problem, that again depends on which model you get and or who makes the tree, unfortunately i have yet to find any saddler out there with a decent jenifer tree, what size tree is your mcclellan? i have found the 12 inch seat to sit better, then again thats personal prefernce, but the best advice i can give is to just ride it often and get miles on it and maybe you will get the feel for it, i rode in a mcclellan for a good bit of time and felt perfectly secure in one, till i rode my grimsley for 3 years now, a mcclellan feels foriegn


jason klug

[ButtermilkRanger]

Re: jenifer seat

I know this is getting off topic, but I've often wondered how common Grimsley's Dragoon saddles would have been in the Confederacy, at least in the eary war period? Ken, have you uncovered any research concerning them? I know that in at least the Baton Rouge Arsenal, there were still stock piles of Mexican War surplus (for example, large numbers of Mississippi rifles) when the arsenal was captured. Is there any documentation that stores of cavalry equipment were captured in the arsenals? It would seem to me that there is a larger likelihood of outdated models of equipment (such as Grimsleys and Mississippi rifles) than the more current up-to-date models being issued to the Federals.

[malachi]

Re: jenifer seat

mark, have you ever ridden a universal pattern before? they are very similar to the hussars saddle. they really do put your legs out in front of you and make for a very secure seat despite being very shallow seated. i have had horses rear straight up, buck, crowhop, and anything else you can imagine while riding a u.p. saddle and felt completely safe. you never have to work to put your feet forward. it is more an unconscience thing, and i think that is what a jenny might do as well. would you agree? i,m sure i can get used to a mac seat, but when your legs are mostly out beside you and your mare hits the brakes to avoid the horse eating wal-mart bag, it sure makes for an uncomfortable stop. hard to leverage backward.

john gregory tucker

[Jerry Ross]

Re: jenifer seat

John
Where did you get you U.P. saddle ? I have nver seen one outside of a muesum. Do you have any pictures of it ?

[malachi]

Re: jenifer seat

Jerry, my complete apologies for the confusion. My saddle is a modern version, known primarily as a troopers saddles. Jack Haggis and many others make them. Mine was built by a local saddler. They are however based purely on the 1856 universal pattern. They feature suspended seats, steel arches fore and aft, full skirts, padded bars etc... like the original universal pattern. they utilize quarter straps, and western rigging. I have researched this one a bit and they are just the most modern incarnation of the U.P.
I did not mean to mislead you or anyone else. this saddle is used by law enforcment and military all over the world still today. the military versions were hard seats however where mine is quite well padded. if you ever want a very comfortable light, sturdy, dependable saddle with an interesting history, i would highly recommend to you.
john gregory tucker

[TexCavly]

Re: jenifer seat

I know this is getting off topic, but I've often wondered how common Grimsley's Dragoon saddles would have been in the Confederacy, at least in the eary war period? Ken, have you uncovered any research concerning them? I know that in at least the Baton Rouge Arsenal, there were still stock piles of Mexican War surplus (for example, large numbers of Mississippi rifles) when the arsenal was captured. Is there any documentation that stores of cavalry equipment were captured in the arsenals? It would seem to me that there is a larger likelihood of outdated models of equipment (such as Grimsleys and Mississippi rifles) than the more current up-to-date models being issued to the Federals.

Larry I will stray off topic also, only to inform you of a memoir written by a member of the 3rd Texas Cav. The name of which neglects me but I was told by my commandant (who edited the book before publication) that the stores captured from the Alamo where Grimsley pattern. In the book he speaks of the shining breast collars of the cavalrymen as they left out of Dallas ie; Brass heart breast collars. I'll try to site the source as soon as possible.

[Ken Knopp]

Re: jenifer seat

Larry,

Q: I've often wondered how common Grimsley's Dragoon saddles would have been in the Confederacy, at least in the eary war period? Ken, have you uncovered any research concerning them? I know that in at least the Baton Rouge Arsenal, there were still stock piles of Mexican War surplus (for example, large numbers of Mississippi rifles) when the arsenal was captured. Is there any documentation that stores of cavalry equipment were captured in the arsenals?


A; According to CS Chief of Ordnance, Josiah Gorgas ( in a post war artilcle) virtually no cavalry saddlery of any kind were found in the former US Arsenals captured by the South at the beggining of the war. All had to be made from scratch, imported or captured. Some amount of artillery harness was found at Baton Rouge when it fell, which "might" have included a few Grimsleys but neither he nor anything else I have ever read makes any special note of it. I think the previous poster is correct. A few Grimselys were also found at the San Antonio Arsenal. Correct me if I am wrong here but I think that was from Morgan Merrick's book, "From Destert to Bayou", (?) Maybe not. No doubt few at other places too but not enough to make a notable difference.

NOTE (to no one in particular): Only two types of British saddles are knowns to have been imported in any signifiant quantity by the Confederacy. The first, was the Hussar's saddles. These were primarily Crimean War surplus being replaced by the new 1856 UP then coming on line. The second was, of course, the first British UP, the 1856. Most of these were new manufacture (possibly rejects by the British army?). Almost all of the above saddles ended up in the hands of CS officer's- not troopers. Very few if any, enlisted or private type saddles were imported for issue to Southern troopers. The above noted patterns have distinct appearances. (Please see my article on my web site for details) Any later model UP's used on the reenacting field would NOT be authentic in any manner, shape or form. Sorry, I hope this does not appear elitist or harsh. I just want to keep folks from taking awat a mis-understanding.


Ken R Knopp

[U.S Dragoon]

Re: jenifer seat

I would definitly like to see what information that could be found on the grimsleys and there use during the war both federal and confederate uses, i have found some stuff during my reasearch, which when i get enough compiled i'll share with you all,



jason klug

[Mark Choate]

Re: jenifer seat

Well, well, gentlemen, it would seem that y'all have been quite active on the forum over the past couple of days.

My apologies, Mr. Tucker for the delay in responding back to your question, as I have been out of town for a few days and could not log on. I am glad that Jerry came in with the question on the UP saddle as I was about to answer that "no" I have not ridden one as there really aren't any, but I understand the comparison that you are trying to make. I urge you to please read again (in great detail) Ken's comments above on the usage of any later model UP's. They would not be accurate and would not be part of an impression that we would want to put forth to the community.

I am, however, sensitive to the core concern that I think that you have and that being, getting a more authentic saddle that gives you the security to be found in your current saddle. I can say that I have ridden most of the styles of saddles used in this hobby (and then some) from the military to the civilian and the hybrids in between and while leg position is a key component (as is foot position, hand position, etc.) all of the saddles will impact your seat differently and your leg position to some degree, but all are manageable IF you have the proper balance from the seat on up. I have a feeling ( and please do not take this as a sermon or anything) that you may be relying on the position of the leg to "grip" the horse and thus afford the security that you desire. If that is sought primarily from saddle shape, cantle placement, leg position, etc. then the true anchor that you are looking for will elude you. The key to the solid seat is the balance from the seat up. Regardless of the discipline of riding done you will hear exhortations to "sit deep" in the saddle. To acquire close contact with the horse and afford a platform to establish the balance that I refer to.

I could go on for a while on this topic as watching many of our comrades sit a horse with a "bent over slouch" that looks both "triflin' and lazy" is a pet peeve of mine. Again, please bear in mind that I am not saying you are guilty of this at all, but I am saying that the dependency on legs, stirrups and tree shape is symptomatic of a lack of balance and a good seat. So, to wind this down, I would suggest that you find someone with a Jennie or some of these other saddles and try riding them in some extreme terrain. I also suggest to help you with the seat and the balance that you try riding (a lot) without your stirrups. When you tie them out of the way (or at least kick them off) you will be forced to sit deep and to stay balanced. It can work wonders! One final suggestion is that you try to make it to our Camp of Instruction in March. We have a section that will deal with this very subject. The title of the instructional is "Horsemanship & Horsemastership" and it deals with this and other equestrian foibles that plague many of us and it uses many of the same techniques that the U.S. Cavalry used in their manuals (of the same name) early in the twentieth century. " Good horsemastery transcends timelines!!"

take care,
Mark

[malachi]

Re: jenifer seat

Mark, thanks for the reply. I don't use the U.P. for impressions, only the mac. The U.P. is for pleasure riding, and field trials.
john gregory tucker