jenifer seat

[malachi]

Re: jenifer seat

Well if you thought I was dumb before this will seal the deal. I had originally posted this question some months back, and several of you were kind enough to chime in and give some great advice. I recently read an article on English riding which told me things that I am sure all of you already knew.
I was unfamiliar with the terms "classical seat" and "chair seat". (I've taught myself everything I know about riding, right or wrong). The very seat I described as troublesome in my original post is apparently the ideal seat for riding, while the one I liked best is considered the poorest of form. The Mac is set up precisely to assume the classical seat, with one's heels aligned though the centerline of the body. A triangle is formed with the two feet and crotch of the rider. My Troopers saddle of U.P. design has its hangers far forward just like Jackson's hussar saddle. It by default puts one in a "foot forward of riders bottom" position. This is the so known chair seat, and is highly derided by those in the know. I also noticed that I had no more knee problems when I switched to a U.P. saddle. I don't get dumped out of this saddle anymore than I ever did before with my legs beside me. I guess asking if any of you have noticed riders assuming such a posture in saddle. I ride gaited horses and this chair seat seems to be the convential wisdom of those who ride field trials etc...
I would like to hear some of you talk about your seat and what you see as poor form etc... I am expecting to have my Jenny built by fall and am always looking to improve my skills and appearance. Is it a matter of what works for you or is that just lazy on my part?
warmest regards,
John G Tucker

[Lance Stifle]

Re: jenifer seat

Good afternoon Mark
you've mentioned you have a Grimlsey saddle you often use, how do you find them compared to the Macs, particularly when uit comes to fit and horse comfort; and do they allow a further forward stirrup swing ? (Oh heresy)

Kim Stewart-Gray

[Mark Choate]

Re: jenifer seat

Hi Kim,

Yes, the Grimsley has been getting a lot of use of late. I didn't go into the year planning that, but it has just worked out that way based on the nature of the events.

As to your question regarding the comfort and fit to the horse, it totally is dependent on the build of the horse. I have two primary mounts that I use and they could not be built more differently. One is very high withered with a fairly pronounced backbone (you don't want to do a lot of bareback with this horse if you catch my drift) and the other has less prominent withers and a rounded back. The saddle will fit them both, but you have to rig it up differently. The pommel and cantle are high (as with all such saddles) and I find the bars to be quite forgiving to the round back horse which means for a long campaign, I would most likely select him if using this saddle.

While both the Grimsley and the Mac/Jenifer saddles were of military origin, I must say that from a utilitarian standpoint, the Mac/Jennie design is far superior. There are so many well thought out things in the latter that help the trooper in the field. One can look at the excesses of the Grimsley (with all of the brass and leather padding) and compare that to the more Spartan approach of the Mac/Jennie and see how the demands of the day influenced the design of both.

Another thing I hear commented on is the comfort level of the Grimsley (or lack thereof in some cases). In the recent Shiloh movie shoot, there were a number of Grimmy's being used in order to stay with historical accuracy and based on the individuals being portrayed. A number of folks who had never ridden them commented on the discomfort of the saddle to the rider. I find that surprising as mine is very comfortable indeed.

So, the long and the short of this is that the comfort level and fit to both the mount and the rider varies as to the particular saddle in hand and the build of the horse. Not really any great revelation there, is it, ha? :wink_smil But, as far as a working saddle, give me the Mac, the Jennie or even a good Texas saddle, most any day. Remember, this is just a personal observation.

By the way, John, my apologies for hi-jacking your thread on the Jenifer tree. "We now return you to your previous viewing selection!"

regards,
mark

[Lance Stifle]

Re: jenifer seat

Thanks Mark
we never see any of the period saddles you mentioned over here, mores the pity.
I'll look for a McClellan based on your advice.

Kim Stewart-Gray

[malachi]

Re: jenifer seat

I hope to have my Jenny by fall. I have been considering forging and japanning my own saddle rings, but I don't know if hand forged hardware woud be appropriate for an early jenny. I had read that they first used up their factory made stuff first. I really would appreciate your advice on this.
John Tucker

[Ken Knopp]

Re: jenifer seat

John,

If you are making a Richmond Arsenal skeleton rigged trooper's Jenifer saddle, then take a look at the following. It may be of assistance to you in your build out....

http://confederatesaddles.com/cswp/?p=647

Hardware? In short, some jappaned iron hardware and even brass was around early in the war from available pre-war supplies but these were in very limited supply. Cast and forged iron rings (and other various roller and horse shoe buckles, etc.) coated with oil, varnish or linseed oil would be more appropriate if you are trying to be generic.

Ken R Knopp

https://www.confederatesaddles.com

[malachi]

Re: jenifer seat

Where are we today on a patent model Jenifer saddle tree? I have seen very fine non patent models reproduced today, but has anyone ever come up with the correct pommel configuration for an early war model? I've been looking for four years now.
Greg Tucker

[Ken Knopp]

Re: jenifer seat

The fact of the matter is that many surviving original "patent" model saddles differ enough that I think there are at least three variations (probably more). One can attribute this to "contractor variation" or "whatever" reason. Who knows?
In total, there are about 15 surviving CS Jenifers that I know of. I say "about" cause four or 5 of them are likely original trees or saddles but have no obvious or supporting documentation or, they have been altered enough along their lifetimes to render them speculative. So, what constitutes a "patent model". In short, the ones that most look like Jenifer's patent drawing. The vast majority of the surviving CS Jenifers are patent models. Yet, even some of them differ noticeably from Jenifer's Patent. The differences I note above are seen in their pommel or cantle shapes and the length/thickness of their bars. Enough to be obvious but some times it is difficult to determine because the tree is leather covered and/or has brass trim (more often it is because a complete "hands-on" survey of all of them is impossible). Unfortunately, there are very few Jennies that clearly fall outside the scope the "patent" drawing guideline. Only a handfull- maybe three. Surviving but, no doubt in complete records, tell us about 18,000 1st model Jenifers were made and at least 6,350 "New Jenifers" were made-in the east (Western arsenals llikely made some too though not many but the records are grossly incomplete). So while we can speculate, the truth is that in summary it is really difficult to draw firm conclusions from such a small sampling of surviving specimens.
Having said all of that, for reenactor purposes and a solid reproduction I would suggest one stick to the patent model as best you can. Now, someone else can step in here with more "correct" information about reproductions......however, I am not aware of anyone making Jenifer trees for direct sale to buyers. Right now, it is my understanding that Doug Kidd makes his own Jenifers and Karl Pepper has his made in rough form then finishes them. There may be others but I have not heard of anyone else making them now...at least not in any quantity. Anyone?

As to the original question of their adherence to the "patent model" that would fall under...."in the eye of the beholder".

Ken R Knopp

[mosbysgirl]

Re: jenifer seat

Steele still lists jenifer trees on his site

http://www.equi-flex.com/ST.html

And will sell just the tree.