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ANNOUNCING: The 2011 Cavalry Camp of Instruction!!!....

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  • #91
    Re: ANNOUNCING: The 2011 Cavalry Camp of Instruction!!!....

    While I was not able to attend the COI, it is certainly on my bucket list. I have followed this thread and enjoyed reading the feedback and it sounds like it was a great experience. I also like Tom's idea about the "grading" of different kits. I like the idea but can see several pit falls. I believe those pit falls can easily be fixed with the right work done in advance and the right people working together. If this is done in the wrong way, you may end up turning more people away then you would attracting or improving. The other issue would be what standard would you be using to grade people. For instance, when you look at original cartridge boxes, you will find some that look like a true artisan put them together with clean lines, very tight stitches, edge dressings, etc vs ones that look like my 9 year old put them together. They are both surviving artifacts, so which is going to be the baseline for the grading of others equipment. You could go with what is in the ordnance manuals but as we have often seen, governments accepted items that may not have been exactly what was described in the manuals. Not to mention the different equipement in the eastern and western theater. If we go back to the cartridge box example, I think there are common connections that can be found in original items that might be used in the grading system, but there may be variations that would have to be acknowledged. By all means I am not denouncing the idea. But, that the folks who would do such a grading system would have to do a lot of pre planning and maybe see it more of a teaching tool then a grading tool.
    Rob Bruno
    1st MD Cav
    http://1stmarylandcavalry.com

    Comment


    • #92
      Re: ANNOUNCING: The 2011 Cavalry Camp of Instruction!!!....

      Rob,

      Yours is the voice of reason "which cryeth out from the wilderness"! :wink_smil

      That is exactly the thing that has to be measured. If we don't do this evaluation and critiquing of the impression the right way, then once again it will end up with the same 6 to 12 in attendance and absolutely nothing gained! I would rather stop it altogether than have it die an agonizing death like that.

      Very perceptive of you to comment on this and that is exactly what Ken and I have been discussing as far as future events and how to best carry the message and accomplish the goal while we are also growing the numbers.

      regards,
      Mark
      J. Mark Choate
      7th TN. Cavalry, Co. D.

      "Let history dictate our impressions.......not the other way around!"

      Comment


      • #93
        Re: ANNOUNCING: The 2011 Cavalry Camp of Instruction!!!....

        I think that you start with a baseline in Year I and raise the bar each year. For example, I saw a plethora of modern eyeglasses, stampede straps, some guys showing modern T shirts and the dude with the earring - Those anachronisms should have been corrected in the parking lot!
        Mike Ventura
        Shannon's Scouts

        Comment


        • #94
          Re: ANNOUNCING: The 2011 Cavalry Camp of Instruction!!!....

          I tend to agree with Mike. Start at baseline mainstream just like for any event. It doesn't have to be handsewn, proper dye etc. just a blue (as opposed to purple) sack coat, etc... The bar doesnt have to be raised too high each year, but we could document improvements even photos how impressions change. Guys could even critique themselves or make a list of what they feel they need to improve. Those (like myself) that know where their weak spots are are more concerned about them than a lot of folks are... Just my thoughts. Z
          [B][FONT="Book Antiqua"][SIZE="4"][I]Zack Ziarnek[/I][/SIZE][/FONT][/B]
          [email]ill6thcav@yahoo.com[/email]

          Authentic Campaigner since 1998... Go Hard or Go Home!

          "Look back at our struggle for Freedom, Trace our present day's strength to its source, And you'll find that this country's pathway to glory, Is strewn with the bones of the horse." Anonymous

          Comment


          • #95
            Re: ANNOUNCING: The 2011 Cavalry Camp of Instruction!!!....

            Mike and Zack.
            Great idea and that process could be best accomplished in conjunction with a mentor program. It would be a one on one thing and would work better than if the recruit depended on just anyone doing an inspection at a particular event to grade the kit. The mentor would be best suited for this as he would see the progression from start to current(not to finish because we are never finished improving). I have had the good fortune to have such a mentor and I have learned a lot from his guidance. I believe this last COI will go a long way in improving our impression. It sure has got us thinking!
            [I][SIZE=3]Jeff Gibson[/SIZE][/I]
            [SIZE=3][I]Consolidated Independent Rangers[/I][/SIZE]
            [I][SIZE=3]Formerly of Sunny Central Florida now the rolling hills of Tennessee[/SIZE][/I]

            Comment


            • #96
              Re: ANNOUNCING: The 2011 Cavalry Camp of Instruction!!!....

              I believe this last COI will go a long way in improving our impression. It sure has got us thinking!
              I know what you mean, just when I thought I was "done" I find a lot more I can improve on! (like getting enough weight on my mare so I can use my civilian saddle!)
              Last edited by Forrestcavalryman; 03-31-2011, 04:31 PM. Reason: spelling
              Andrew Verdon

              7th Tennessee Cavalry Company D

              Tennessee Plowboy #1 of the "Far Flung Mess"

              Comment


              • #97
                Re: ANNOUNCING: The 2011 Cavalry Camp of Instruction!!!....

                Originally posted by Forrestcavalryman View Post
                (like getting enough wieght on my mare so I can use my civilian saddle!)
                "I stole this here fat horse from a Yankee Ocifer!" ;D
                John Clinch ~ The Texas Waddi of the "Far Flung Mess"

                "Fighting the Texans is like walking into a den of wildcats"- Union private
                "When a Texan fancies he'll take his chances, chances will be taken..."

                Comment


                • #98
                  Re: ANNOUNCING: The 2011 Cavalry Camp of Instruction!!!....

                  "I stole this here fat horse from a Yankee Ocifer!" ;D
                  Don't need the officer's fat horse, she needs THE FAT from the officer's horse!
                  Andrew Verdon

                  7th Tennessee Cavalry Company D

                  Tennessee Plowboy #1 of the "Far Flung Mess"

                  Comment


                  • #99
                    Re: ANNOUNCING: The 2011 Cavalry Camp of Instruction!!!....

                    I was one of the first ones who stepped up and suggested a parking lot inspection. I'm a self-admitted hypocrit because I wasn't there, but I believe that Mike did a much better job of explaining my original intention than I did. There are some things that completely ruin and impression that could have been easily remedied right then and there. And it usually has more to do with what you need to remove, than what you need to add. None of us started at the top. We all were probably farbs at one point. I know I was. I doubt there is a single one of here who are considered "progressed" who are arguing that these newer guys should show up with hand stitched everything and a top quality kit. But what is the harm in us offering suggestions on ways to easily and quickly improve one's impression? When I first started to make the transitiion, I did it much like Zack... I went to some events and saw some "hardcores" and knew immediately that I wanted to do it like that. Trouble is, I had no idea how. I researched, researched some more, and then finally did some more research, but in the meantime, I solicited advice on where to find the good vendors and how to improve on what I had.

                    How many of they guys at CoI could have improved on what they had if they would have been told how to do some top stitching and hand-worked buttonholes on the jean they already were wearing? How many actually knew they had Hollywood hats and farby glasses? How many understood that in our circle "it ain't right, but it will do" simply will NOT do?

                    I'm opposed to running off those who legitimately want to progress, but I am likewise opposed to being totally accepting when someone is satisfied to be standing in the farbovian fog of ignorance. We lead by example. We all have a responsibilty to improve the hobby, but that doesn't mean we have to be tolerant of those who choose not to change.

                    I guess I'm just getting crusty in my old age.
                    Larry Morgan
                    Buttermilk Rangers

                    Comment


                    • Re: ANNOUNCING: The 2011 Cavalry Camp of Instruction!!!....

                      Originally posted by rbruno View Post
                      ... I like the idea but can see several pit falls. I believe those pit falls can easily be fixed with the right work done in advance and the right people working together. If this is done in the wrong way, you may end up turning more people away then you would attracting or improving. The other issue would be what standard would you be using to grade people. For instance, when you look at original cartridge boxes, you will find some that look like a true artisan put them together with clean lines, very tight stitches, edge dressings, etc vs ones that look like my 9 year old put them together. They are both surviving artifacts, so which is going to be the baseline for the grading of others equipment. You could go with what is in the ordnance manuals but as we have often seen, governments accepted items that may not have been exactly what was described in the manuals. Not to mention the different equipement in the eastern and western theater. If we go back to the cartridge box example, I think there are common connections that can be found in original items that might be used in the grading system, but there may be variations that would have to be acknowledged. By all means I am not denouncing the idea. But, that the folks who would do such a grading system would have to do a lot of pre planning and maybe see it more of a teaching tool then a grading tool.
                      Rob,
                      The idea of inspection would absolutely be a teaching tool in my mind. The point of grading them would be to educate them against an objective standard of material culture, to allow them to see how what they have stacks up against what went on historically. It is one thing to present information to a group and let the audience try to understand how it applies to them...another entirely to take someone, in a non-judgemental, but educational format and instruct them on what is good, and what needs improvement in their kit.

                      You raise a good question about how do you determine what standard to use. There are two apporaches that I see. One, would be to say we are doing year 1862 and the participants should try to match their impression as best they can to that general standard. The other (which would require more work and more knowledge from the judges) would be to inspect each person against what they were trying to represent (ie 7th TN, 8th AL etc). While certainly CS stuff features a WIDE range of variation, period construction techniques, period materials and period construction styles are pretty universal. I know squat about the details of a CS cartridge box of any type, but I can certainly tell a good quality reproduction item from a bad one in terms of workmanship, period materials and technique.

                      It isn't fool proof, but it is an idea that could be used to solve some of the issues presented in this discussion AND educate each man on how to improve his kit.

                      Take care,
                      Tom Craig
                      1st Maine Cavalry
                      Tom Craig

                      Comment


                      • Re: ANNOUNCING: The 2011 Cavalry Camp of Instruction!!!....

                        My last comment on this subject -

                        There were some really good impressions at CoI, mostly from the guys that you expect that effort from. And on the other end, there were guys that have been doing it "that way" for many years. I know, because I've seen them at events over the years and nothing has changed. I'm bewildered how someone can sit through 14 very excellent periods of instruction over 2 days and NOT think "maybe that applies to me, maybe I can improve." But, to be honest, I think some will put on the same clothes and gear, the same bad hat, the same stampede string, the same modern glasses for the next event, and the one after that, and the one...

                        It was a pleasure to meet young guys like Andrew Verdon and John Clinch who have good impressions and still want to improve. Bully!! You are the future of the accurate end of the hobby. Great to see guys like Jeff Gibson and Jason Klug, who I have watched grow and improve in a little more than a year. Great to meet Paul Muller, who went away having "seen the light." Nice to have Zack Z. shed the blue for the first time; fun to have Chad Greene in the ranks as a trooper and special to have Jesse and Myers come out and play. Ethan, Jerry, Scott...you guys always do it right. Guy and Tommy - what can I say, I have watched you guys "get it" for more than a dozen years. Dan Chmelar - for an Iowa Yank, you do southern real nice! These are but of few of the positive influences at CoI. I look forward to seeing even more next year. I name but a few, but they are representative of many who work to make this end of the hobby better.

                        Would be great to have some of our eastern buddies, Tom, Dave, Andrew come next year as more examples of how to do it right.

                        There is a core who, though not perfect, and never will be, try their best. There are guys who are improving and learning and being influenced in a positive way.

                        There is hope!
                        Mike Ventura
                        Shannon's Scouts

                        Comment


                        • Re: ANNOUNCING: The 2011 Cavalry Camp of Instruction!!!....

                          Tom,
                          We are certainly on the same page. I figured all along that you would see the idea of the inspection as a teaching tool which again I think is a great suggestion at an event like the COI. There is just no time at an regular event to do that sort of thing besides sitting around the camp fire exchanging ideas which is sometimes my favorit part of events. I think the idea of the year would be great for Federals. I think the unit or area (ie, eastern/western) would be better for CS just because of the variety. A good year study of the Feds would be cool because I think for the most part they would be more consistant and would be a great beginning point because so much of the CS stuff is at least on paper meant to copy the Feds. Wow, I hope I didn't open a new line in this thread with those couple statements..... Either way, if the planning is done in advanced and the research is done, it would be a great addition to any COI or drill.

                          To Mark and all those that planned, presented, and participated in this event, you should be proud of how it all turned out. Not only for so much of the feedback that has been posted, but also all the discussion it has generated outside the event itself. We need more of this on the cavalry side of things. I think we need to keep generating this kind of interest on our own because we are such a small end of the hobby and we are spread all over the place. I do have this event in the future on my list and will make one at some point.
                          So in the end, great job on this event and hopefully we will see more in the future.
                          Rob Bruno
                          1st MD Cav
                          http://1stmarylandcavalry.com

                          Comment


                          • Re: ANNOUNCING: The 2011 Cavalry Camp of Instruction!!!....

                            Sorry to have mised it.
                            Just a private soldier trying to make a difference

                            Patrick Peterson
                            Old wore out Bugler

                            Comment


                            • Re: ANNOUNCING: The 2011 Cavalry Camp of Instruction!!!....

                              Pete, You were missed, but we all understand family first... Z
                              [B][FONT="Book Antiqua"][SIZE="4"][I]Zack Ziarnek[/I][/SIZE][/FONT][/B]
                              [email]ill6thcav@yahoo.com[/email]

                              Authentic Campaigner since 1998... Go Hard or Go Home!

                              "Look back at our struggle for Freedom, Trace our present day's strength to its source, And you'll find that this country's pathway to glory, Is strewn with the bones of the horse." Anonymous

                              Comment


                              • Re: ANNOUNCING: The 2011 Cavalry Camp of Instruction!!!....

                                Gentlemen:

                                You may remember that I was filming your event for a short-film documentary about the 1863 Abel Streight – NB Forrest cavalry chase across North Alabama. The exhibit is now open to the public at the Cullman County Museum in Cullman, Alabama. The film plays in an artifact case that has a detailed map of the raid through Alabama, as well as artifacts from battles and skirmishes along the way.

                                I hope you all have a laugh at the "authentic" mules ridden by yankees....

                                Here is the link to the film:

                                Short-form documentary on the 1863 raid throughout North Alabama lead by Union Colonel Abel Streight, chased by Confederate General Nathan Bedford Forrest. Filmed…


                                Thank you all!

                                Your obedient servant,

                                John Kelton

                                PS: I am in no way affiliated with the 21st century photographers that showed up who were part of the "1861 Project"
                                John W. Kelton

                                [I]Honoring my ancestors:
                                [/I]Private Elias Kelton, Co. E, 11th GA Cav
                                Private William B. Massengale, Co. K, 11th AL Inf
                                Private John S. Davis, Co. H, 36th AL Inf
                                Private James D. Clary, Co. A, Tuscaloosa prison guards

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