campaingn packing

[wavey1us]

Re: campaingn packing

Naw,
It was that:
"If ever I meet one of you Texas waddies who ain't drunk water from a hoofprint, I think I'll... I'll shake their hand or buy 'em a Daniel Webster cigar."

[Tom Craig]

Re: campaingn packing

Guys,
Certainly location, and experience (conditioning) have a great deal to do with where you "draw the line" on many things. Conditions east of the Appalachian mountains (at least in the northeast) are often far more crowded, developed, and sadly polluted than other parts of the country. I would be willing to drink from a stream high in the Rockies that issued directly from a glacier...but then, wait. I was in Rocky Mountain National Park a couple of years ago, and decided to cool my heels in the coolest, clearest mountain stream I have ever seen. The water was spotless, and tempting to drink, until I looked just upstream to find the pieces of what had been an elk half in the stream. What you can't see, can in fact hurt you.

To bring this back more into the focus of the disucssion: I remember Ken's article on canteens, and I will have to go back and reread it. I am curious on the canteen question, how much of that was lacking supply, and how much of it was an error in accounting. In Federal returns from eastern regiments, you will often see wide variations, in the same unit, from quarter to quarter. At one review there will be 25 link straps, at the next 0 and at the following one there will be 25 again. What it seems to point to is an error in counting or at least catagorizing company property. Canteens were considered company property, but it is possible that untutored volunteer officers MAY have not counted them, thinking they were personal property, or MAY have only counted issue items, while men had things like bottles etc that stood in for canteens. Or, they may in fact have gone entirely without. Interesting thought.

One thing that hasn't really been said in this discussion, which is said all the time with the infantry: base your impression on the unit you are portraying at the time you are portraying it. We all know that unit supply varied greatly from theater to theater, from side to side and from unit to unit. An eastern Federal impression is going to look vastly different in terms of supply than a trans-Mississippi CS impression. The absolute best practice is to find out what the original cast of characters had when you are portraying them, and copy that.

Take care,
Tom Craig
1st Maine Cavalry

[Hank Trent]

Re: campaingn packing

Or, they may in fact have gone entirely without. Interesting thought.

For what it's worth, the common cliche for civilians camping in the east was to carry a tin cup slung on the belt, with no canteen. (The drier west was another issue, of course.) So coming from the civilian direction, one has to justify why canteens were being carried in the military. The logic would seem to be that soldiers on the march can't just be running off to look for a local creek every time they're thirsty, both for the sake of discipline, and due to military necessity requiring they may have to march over here instead of there, depending what the enemy is doing.

It's possible that cavalry soldiers, being more easily mobile, and needing to get to water regularly for their horses anyway, found those issues less of a problem and therefore didn't feel as much of a pressing necessity for canteens. Don't know, but it's a possibility.

Needless to say, whether that can be safely portrayed in any given 21st century circumstance is a separate issue, but of course the first step is to figure out what was actually done.

Hank Trent
hanktrent@gmail.com

[Old-South]

Re: campaingn packing

Yep, We forget how pure and clean the waters of the 19th century were. It wasn't anything for a traveller to drink from a moving creek, stream, etc. Wouldn't dream of it today!

[Paul L Muller]

Re: campaingn packing

When I was Cowboying, I was riding along a creek looking for a steer that quit the herd and stopped the water my horse. I fought the urge to drink, and so crossed the creek and headed up stream. With in 50 yards there was another open spot at the water with a full grown decaying cow IN the stream. Canteens are a GOOD thing plm

[Mike Ventura]

Re: campaingn packing

Following the example of some of my file mates, I drank from the stream that ran through the property where Outpost I was held in 1999. A few days later, I got an intestinal "bug" that I couldn't shake. After a week, I went to my doc and he ran some tests. I had picked up a parasitical infection that came from waterborne parasites. I was told that they were very common in the streams of North Georgia, and, if untreated, can sometimes cause death. Three weeks on a very strong antibiotic cured me.

If you go through the records and writings, you will see that, what we would today call "dysentery," was very prevalent in the period. It came from drinking bad water, bad personal hygiene and a bunch of other practices that we know, today, are just inviting illness. IF you were at Pickett's Mill I (2002?) when about 40-50% of the participants became very ill with dysentery type symptoms from bad water (the water containers were never sterilized, and water sat in them for a few days before the event), you'll know it's no fun. Drink all that creek water you want - I'll be the guy with the canteen.

[woodreb]

Re: campaingn packing

Having had a similar experience to Mike Ventura's at Bank's Grand Retreat, I came across micropur purification tablets from Katadyn products http://www.katadyn.com/usen/katadyn-...ation-tablets/

Randolph Ubben
CVG

[Mark Choate]

Re: campaingn packing

Mike,

I thought the "bowel complaint" at "Picketts Mill" was from John Cleaveland's feast of rancid pork???

[Outrider]

Re: campaingn packing

sigh...again...advocating sharing a canteen, if correct for the impression, NOT going around drinking from creeks and mudholes.

Though I have to say I have lived here in NW Georgia most of my life and have drank from many a running stream out in the mountains and forests around here and have never had any ill effects whatsoever but then I have always had a rock hard constitution .

Now is anyone going to die without a haversack?
Geez y'all I only mentioned any of this haversack/canteen business in the first place to illustrate that it can be done, because I , and others, HAVE done it for TWO DAYS and lived and NOT to suggest that anyone else do it.

BTW, I am with Mark on the PM thing. I didnt eat any 'tainted' whatever that stuff was ,but everyone I know who did ended up sick. I was informed by one who should know that the mistake that was made was on account of cooking whatever it was, in a large pot that was used for period dye and was not properly washed out first...Oops. I drank water from both the storage thingies and the creek and had no problems at all.

[Hank Trent]

Re: campaingn packing

BTW, I am with Mark on the PM thing. I didnt eat any 'tainted' whatever that stuff was .... I drank water from both the storage thingies and the creek and had no problems at all.

I also drank from several of the storage thingies but didn't eat the meat and had no problem.

Hank Trent
hanktrent@gmail.com

[ButtermilkRanger]

Re: campaingn packing

Water purification tablets are issued to the modern military on a regular basis in some very e-coli rich environments. They are also, I believe, a suitable alternative for those who want to go to the better quality immersive events where modern water sources aren't available. They were issued at ITPW where 100% of the drinking water came from creeks and if there were any ill effects, I haven't heard any reports. But along those same lines as what Hank mentioned earlier concerning conditioning and immunity, I was at Picket's Mill in '02 and I drank from those same water barrels. I never had the first problem, but, as Mike mentioned, others ended up with liquid guts.

In all seriousness, what I've often wondered is if what we are accustomed to in our modern lives conditions us more to the hobby? As I mentioned, I've never had what we call "city water". Even as a kid, our water came from an artesian well and as an adult, it still does. I can't tolerate the chemical taste with city water. Maybe I'm exposed to more bacteria than the average suburbanite? I don't know. I'm also one of those people who don't keep my horses in an enclosed barn and they would run from a blanket if they ever saw one. When it's raining, they get wet, when it's cold they grow a winter coat, and they only get shoes once in a blue moon when I'm going to an event that dictates it. Yet I seldom have problems with my horses at an event. In 20 years in the cavalry, I've had one horse colic at an event and it was only because I was trying to be nice and fed him oats (which he'd never seen before) instead of straight hay. He lived to remind me of my mistake, though.

I'm not trying to stand up here and thump my chest and say I'm more hardcore than you because I've drank from a river and my horses don't live inside. I'm just trying to say that some people do things differently with different results. It's not right or wrong, it just is.

[ButtermilkRanger]

Re: campaingn packing

I stand corrected... maybe I was at a "different" Picket's Mill. I don't remember John cooking anything, and if he did, I didn't eat it.

[malachi]

Re: campaingn packing

i used to do a good bit of hiking and we knew to NEVER drink from any stream regardless of how clear it was. giardia is too prevelant. we filtered everything. never got sick.
john g tucker

[Spinster]

Re: campaingn packing

BTW, I am with Mark on the PM thing. I didnt eat any 'tainted' whatever that stuff was ,but everyone I know who did ended up sick. I was informed by one who should know that the mistake that was made was on account of cooking whatever it was, in a large pot that was used for period dye and was not properly washed out first...Oops. I drank water from both the storage thingies and the creek and had no problems at all.

No one will ever be able to definitively determine what happened at that particular Picketts Mill event, causing half the participants to become ill. If it was the water, its certainly been a lesson learned in the hobby, and those of us who deal with water supply regularly are now as careful about chlorine shock, through rinse, and fresh water placement as we hope the weapon inspection men are about a sharp 'ping' when the ramrod hits the bottom of the barrel.

This is the first time I've heard the 'dyepot theory' concerning this event. If that was the case, I will add this. As an experienced dyer, I will NEVER use a pot for food that has previously been used for period natural dyes and mordants. The great majority of mordant chemicals are toxic. Many of the natural dyestuffs are poisonous in their own right (the pour off from a walnut hull dyebath with NO mordant will kill grass for at least a year) . Good old fashioned iron washpots have a porous surface--tiny or large pocmarks that hold whatever is in the pot. No amount of rinsing will get those dyes and mordants out of a pot--a good sandblasting, yeah, maybe so.

So much of this common chemical knowledge is lost in today's society, and folks assume that because something is 'natural' that it is safe. I was right pleased a few years ago when an observant artillery man saw me pouring a distinctive blue mordant into a dye kettle and pronounced " Mam, I don't mean to tell you your business, but if you're going to pour stump killer into the soup pot, then I don't want any dinner" I wonder how many folks today know how to make that particular stump killer and common period natural dye mordant....

Then, as now, when we do a dye run, the dye pots and the dinner pots are not even on the same fire---not only are they separated by at least 15 feet, but I do not participate in food preparation when I'm running dyepots. Somebody else prepares my plate, and sets it in front of me.

We now return you to your regularly scheduled programming...........