on going saga of jenny trees

[malachi]

I spoke with George of Hadlock Fox saddle trees yesterday. He is going to be sending me photos of the already made pommel he has for a jenny. He was less clear though on the cantle. I told him what it should look like as best I was able, and he assures me that while he has a pattern, he has no cantle assembled. He then asked me to let him see what he could get together to send me to give me a fuller picture of both ends. He said for me to expect the images next week, and gave me permission to post them here. George was a big help to me when I ordered my mac three years ago and they did offer an unbleached rawhide tree back then, so I assume they still will. Even if the the cantle doesn't pan out, I feel sure one can get the pommel from Hadlock, and send it to Mr. Steele to see about adapting it to his existing tree if need be. Steele after all did have what appeared to be a fairly accurate cantle, and suggested something of the sort to me earlier. Karl Pepper is also stripping down one of his old jenny trees to send to Mr. Steele for him to model, but I have no time frame on that given the fact that Karl said he had some work to do to the tree first. I will post whatever I receive a.s.a.p.
with regards,
JohnGregoryTucker

[ButtermilkRanger]

Re: on going saga of jenny trees

John,

Can you fill me in on what the problem is with the existing Jenifer trees that are out there? I've owned a Bowden Jenny and I've seen pics of the Steele. I've also seen pics of the one that Doug Kidd has. I'm not trying to stir the pot, I legitimately want to know. I've been thinking of buying a tree and building an officer's Jenifer and I want the most accurate tree I can get.

[malachi]

Re: on going saga of jenny trees

I can only speak from photos of the bowden tree, but on their site it looked an awfull lot like a grimsley cantle, having a rather steep angle comperable to the mac. From any photos I have Seen in Mr. Knopp's books and others it lacks the low slant of the originals in the rear. Doug Kidd, Karl Pepper, and Stuart Lilie all used trees from jcws trees in georgia, until the owner's health became so poor that his company is no longer taking orders. If you Look at images on all of their sites you will see the low angle to which I refer; almost hussar in design. I may be completely wrong about the bowden tree, but the images on their site don't give you too much to go on. I do not mean to cast dispersions on anyones work, but want instead to find the most authentic tree I can because I haven't seen any available since jcws stopped producing. Let me know about your bowden tree, or post some images so I can get a better look at one. I may be completely wrong on this! I mean to offend no one.
with regards,
John Gregory Tucker

[ButtermilkRanger]

Re: on going saga of jenny trees

I sold my Jenny years ago to buy the tree and leather for my Texas saddle. I found my Jenifer from Bowden to have a lot more slope than what it looks like in the picture on their website, but I'm not enough of a Jen authority to say if it was enough slope or not. I know the cantle on my Texas is flatter than the one in the pic and the pommel/horn configuration is different as well. But I sent him pics of the originals I was looking at and we went from there. I found him very easy to work with, but he was slow. It took me six or seven months to get my Texas tree. The Jenifer tree didnt' take but about 4 months. I didn't like the pommel on my Bowden jenifer. Seemed too thick to me. I don't care for the pommels on the Karl Pepper and Doug Kidd Jenifers, either. I find them too pointed.

[rbruno]

Re: on going saga of jenny trees

I hope I am not stirring the pot to much on this either because I can only offer some hearsay on this. I recent bought on ebay a enlisted Jennifer that Aden Nichols made about 20 odd years ago. From a few people that were around when Aden was making this run of saddles, he work with I think Bowden to design the trees. They went through several alterations before Aden was satisfied with the tree compared to originals. Larry, if you bought a tree from Bowden that long ago, it could have been one of that design. Again, Bowden had several different designs and altered them based on Adens request. To over generalize, it has a thing very horse shoe shaped pommel and a low sloping cantel. There are other versions of Jennifers out there. The two officer saddles I looked at at the MOC, one has the pommel like the tree I described and the other has the thicker, shorter, pommel found on some of the trees out there like the Officer saddle I got from Karl Pepper and like one of the officer saddles I saw that Stuart Lillie made. I think this is the tree pattern that is out there now. However, the cantel in my humble and uneducated opinion is the major difference between the tree in my Aden Nichols/old Bowden tree and my newer tree from Karl and others I have seen. The cantel on my new saddle from Karl has a steaper seat and the "duck bill" is kind of flat. It is so hard to describe the subtle shape of the saddle without setting trees side by side and looking. I didn't notice the difference till I had another and then knew what I was looking for when I went to the MOC. I appreciate the work you are doing because the tree is the most important and seems to be the hardest to find. I have been following this thread and the other with great interest.

[VaTrooper]

Re: on going saga of jenny trees

...... and Stuart Lilie all used trees from jcws trees in georgia.

I know that Stuart has used tree's that Aden Nichols and John Nolan had made. I'm not sure if he's had to personally go the the guy in Ga yet.

[Ken Knopp]

Re: on going saga of jenny trees

Gentlemen, (for those that care....)
If I may propose a question or two to ponder....... While I think it would be grand to have someone making these Jennies again I would hope it would be a well made copy of a widely made Jenifer tree.
Of the two basic Confederate Jenifer patterns (the "Patent" Jenifer and the "New Jenifer") made in the eastern Confederacy the patent pattern was clearly made in larger numbers and (IMHO) the more attractive. From my research, it appears that 18,047 of the Patent pattern were made (most if not all by Pitman from Jan - Nov 1862 in their two contracts) and approx. 13,185 of the New Jenifer are known to have been manufactured (by Pitman, Hutchings, Broun and Borst from Nov 1862-Spring 1863). Not all were finished and issued.
The Richmond Arsenal switched to the New Jenifer due to poorly constructed patent model trees made by Pitman. The New Jenifer had bars that were more spread and flatter, tapered better to fit the horses back. However, since so many of the first model trees were already made, many already finished and in the field, the Ord Dept. decided to continue making and finishing them but adding under padding to go on the underside of the saddle and even issuing these pads to troops already in the field. To confound and confuse everyone, sadly all of this was taking place right around the time of Gettysburg.
When I conducted this research some ten years ago there were (if memory seves me right) about 7-9 known and documented CS Jenifers. Others were probable. Since then many, many others have surfaced so that there are at least 15-20 (I have not counted) out there now that have survived. What I have learned since that time is that there was a CS Jenifer made on the patent pattern almost identical to W.H. Jenifer's patent, then there were others made that are very similar but distinctively yet consistently different from the patent. Both have surviving examples with the second one haveing variations suggesting additional contractors made them.
And,.....still more Jenifers were made (as noted above by other manufacturers) on the what I believe to be the "New Jenifer" pattern. For clarity, I am of the opinion that the New Jenifer is the one Rob describes- that of the "horseshoe" pommel. I think (again if memory serves me right) this is the one that Aden Nichols and John Nolan so capably had constructed. What I describe are tree patterns. The manner of finishing,..... that is leather and hardware finishing- is another matter entirely.
And, if I have not thoroughly confused everyone yet then I should also point out that this is ONLY in the eastern Confederacy for the ANV! The few Jenifers made at arsenals or by contractors in the western Confederacy (western arsenals mostly made McClellans and Texas saddles but Jennies were made in Augusta, Selma, Macon and Montgomery until August 1863) are almost entirely unknown in pattern (or,...different patterns?? Yikes!) How did these appear or differentiate from eastern Confederate Jenifers I cannot accurately say.
Complicated? Yes!! But it can be resolved for our reproductive needs. While I could not say nor would I venture an opinion as to who makes (or made in the past) the "best" or most "accurate" tree my point here (finally!!) is that if one is to be made now (for PEC) it should probably be of the Patent pattern (largely but not entirely for ANV) but with sufficiently constructed bars so as to not injure a horse's back (hey, we do not have to be that authentic!!).
Now, the next question is ....do we make the tree pattern that is the one (nearly) identical to Jenifer's patent or the Confederacy's more common version of it? This is a matter of personal opinion because both were made in sufficient numbers but.....I personally like the "nearly identical" Patent model. It has "class"!

Just my two cents....


PS: All of this information is in my book and I note there are photos of all of these saddle patterns on my web site. For free!


Ken R Knopp

https://www.confederatesaddles.com

[J.H.Berger]

Re: on going saga of jenny trees

AND the patent tree would allow to make some US Jennifers as well. This is widely neglected by saddle makers so far.

[Mark Choate]

Re: on going saga of jenny trees

Hello gents,

I dearly love all of this discussion of the beloved Jenifer. While Ken's post lays out most clearly the variances in the different types/versions (the "Patent", the "New", eastern, western, etc.), we still see posts touting that "this tree maker builds the best", or "that saddler has the most authentic" or "the pommel should be this", or "the cantle should be that", etc. etc. So, I thought I would blur the lines just a bit more.

If you look at Craig Caba's book, "Historic Southern Saddles" you will find this paragraph at the bottom of page 120:

“Jenifer capitalized on learning from first hand knowledge the attributes and the defects in the architecture of the experimental horse equipment. Unfortunately, the inventor did not operate a saddlery which caused confusion in the precise details of the saddle pattern for local Southern makers. The Jenifer saddle, therefore, was exposed to local individual interpretation by the saddlers. These manufacturers, whether large or small, retained the flat, English seat and rigging, but compromised and altered the structure of the cantle and the pommel. Of all of the saddles used during the rebellion by the Confederacy, both army issued or private purchased, the Jenifer was produced with the greatest variations without any attempt to establish a standardized form.”

While I am not endorsing obvious modern additives, this does lead one to believe that the variations in the tree and overall saddle construction were widespread, regionally influenced and numerous.

regards,
Mark

[ButtermilkRanger]

Re: on going saga of jenny trees

The ongoing Jenny saga is sort of like just about everything else that I've found over the years when researching Confederate material culture... the only absolute is that there are no absolutes. Sounds to me like there were so many variations of the Jenifer that we don't much solid ground to stand on when we try to say for sure what is right and what is wrong.

[malachi]

Re: on going saga of jenny trees

Mr. Shifflett, I did not mean to imply that the three saddlers I mentioned including stuart used jcws exclusively, but in my speaking to them they were currently using him, and were somewhat befuddled as what to do next. I am sure they've used many providers through the years.
Greg Tucker

[Mark Choate]

Re: on going saga of jenny trees

Larry,

Amen and amen!!

To all:
On a related matter, I was talking with Karl Pepper this morning about a small project that he is doing for me and he was lamenting the shortage of quality trees. We had talked of possible suppliers before and there seems to be one that he has been talking too that ironically, doesn't live too far from me. Lives near Ashland City TN. and is called Custom Saddle Tree, Co. I think the owners are named Steele. Anyway, he said that they do quality work and have seemed to be interested in doing a deal with just the tree and then will send it to him for covering in rawhide. He has had trouble getting an update as they have not returned calls lately and he is wanting to get things going. So, I have volunteered to go by there in the next few days to size the place up and talk with his contact. I will try to explain to him that just like the movie, "Field of Dreams", if they build it, we will come........or something like that. I'll try to give you an update if promising.

regards,
Mark

[The Egyptian Homeguard]

Re: on going saga of jenny trees

William, I was under the impression Aden's stuff was long gone sold... is someone hoarding his stuff? ;0 I talked to him last fall about the spurs he used to offer alas they are long gone too... Z

[Ken Knopp]

Re: on going saga of jenny trees

Mark,

This has the potential to be something very, very "cool". The Steele family has a history in making saddles that goes back to just prior to "The War". In fact, the original Steele, George Steele was a native of England and had contracts with at least two Confederate Arsenals (The Nashville Arsenal and later in Atlanta too both under Moses H Wright-Cmdr.) The Confederate records show George had some business for saddle trees under the name of Steele & Miller. The "Miller" of Steele and Miller also had other contracts for "cavalry saddle trees", "saddle trees" and wood stirrups under other names for the State of Tennessee, Nashville Arsenal and Atlanta Arsenal.
Way back in 1995 I dd some research on this firm, met with them at their saddle shop and subsequently wrote an article that appeared in short form in my second book, MADE IN THE CSA, SADDLE MAKERS OF THE CONFEDERACY (see below... For more infor on the "Miller" of firm, see my book)
Wouldn't it be incredible if they were again to undertake to make McClellan, Jenifer or even Muley saddle trees? Almost "too cool" to fathom!!! Ken R KNopp


STEELE AND MILLER (George Steele & William Miller) Nashville, Tenn.
Very few records exist under this name though it is highly probable the firm was a significant supplier of saddle trees to the Nashville Ordnance Depot before its arson fire in December 1862. After Nashville fell in February 1862, George Steele and William Miller moved to Atlanta and continued production there. See "William Miller" and "Miller & Andrews".
The story of George Steele and his descendants is an amazing saga of family saddle making and incredible perseverance interwoven with American history. Family legend says that Steele first came to New York in 1847 from Leeds England where his family had made flax bags used for shipping. He subsequently moved to Goodlettsville, Tennessee, then two years later, Edgefield (now Nashville) and opened up a wagon and saddle making shop. By 1860, his saddlery was reputed to be among that city's largest taking up nearly a city block and employing some seventy people. Though his name is not found in the pre-war Nashville city directories, family history indicates he was a wholesale saddle or tree manufacturer rather than a retailer. Confederate Ordnance Department records show the firm of “Steele & Miller” supplied McClellan cavalry saddles and equipment to the arsenal in Nashville through the summer, fall and winter of 1861. When Nashville fell in February 1862, Steele apparently moved to Atlanta with his partner and for a short time continued supplying the new arsenal with saddle trees under the name of “Steele & Miller.”
Steele’s name next appears in the Confederate record in February 1863, when he was detained by the Confederate Provost Guard for a period of time. Seeking release, Steele wrote to Col. Moses Wright for assistance however, the Atlanta Arsenal commander apparently absolved all responsibility for him. Family legend says he later returned to Nashville and found the Federal’s had not only confiscated his machinery and entire operation but they quickly deported him back to his native England. After the war, George Steele returned to Nashville and again rebuilt his business into one of Nashville's largest. Then in the 1880's, a fire and later a tornado, twice destroyed his shops. Each time George rebuilt and continued making saddles until he passed away in 1910. After George’s death his son and two brothers-in-law continued the family saddle making business in Nashville for some years even manufacturing McClellan saddles again but this time for the U.S. Army during World War One. Soon after the war ended, the expanding automobile industry and the retirement of the elder Steele family members shut down the Steele saddle-making firm until 1937 when Jack W. Steele, grandson to George, once again began saddle-making on the original property in Nashville. The business struggled through the Depression years until World War Two when it was once again forced to close, this time due to war-time rationing. After that war, Jack's son Wayne Steele took up the trade and made saddles and saddle trees until 1961 when urban renewal took the family's Nashville property once and for all. This time, the family moved to Ashland City, Tennessee where today, fifth generation Steele grandchildren Ed Steele and his sister Jane annually make thousands of their own riding saddles and saddle trees for the leading western saddle companies in the United States.
But, the adventures and perils of Steele family saddle making did not end there. Unfortunately, tragedy once again struck in January of 1995 when the firm’s plant burned to the ground. However, in just sixty days the family had completely rebuilt. Once again proving that in the Steele family, "steel" resolve and resiliency is an inherited virtue. (See William Miller, Miller & Andrews)

[The Egyptian Homeguard]

Re: on going saga of jenny trees

Ken, If the Steele family starts producing satisfactory military trees again, that would be cool. So cool I would almost have to buy another saddle... like having an new original. Z