more jenny tree talk

[Forrestcavalryman]

Re: more jenny tree talk

Can I second Mark's request? This would be great to see the real thing!

[malachi]

Re: more jenny tree talk

According to Mr. Knopp's book, the first pittman contract for the jenny produced some 10,000 trees with some of those becoming transition saddes. The second pittman contract produced some 8,000 more, again with some presumably transition saddles. While the tree was cut incorrectly on the first 10,000, it was the contour of the horse side of the tree. I would assume that the outer appearance of the tree would have looked like the patent model as Col. Jenifer himself lodged no complaint about the tree configuration, ony the rigging and skirts. If that is indeed the case then I concluded that the tree must have closely resembled the patent model for at least the first contract and possibly the second. This would account for nearly 18,000 saddles of patent design tree at least. I might well be wrong on my assumptions so let me know if it doesn't sound logical to you!
John Greg Tucker

[malachi]

Re: more jenny tree talk

It is possible that nearly 18,000 jenny trees were of the patent design given the fact that col. Jenifer himself never lodged a complaint about the first contract trees, but the rigging and skirts. These trees were from the patent design i would assume because they originally passed muster with Jenifer himself. If my thinking sounds wrong on this let me know!
John Greg Tucker

[Ken Knopp]

Re: more jenny tree talk

John, you are spot on! Here are the numbers....


AA Pitman 1st Contract 10,000 of the 1st Model (Patent) Jenifer
* Other contracts could very well have been made for 1st Model Jenifers but I was never able to find any.

AA Pitman 2nd contract: 8,047 1st Model Jenifers; 3835 New Jenifers and 3,118 McClellans

Three other major tree suppliers were Hutchings, Broun and Borst: 2,525 New Jenifers

Total: 18,047 1st Model Jenifers and 6350 New Jenifers

The trees for all of the 1st Model Jenifers were similar with some variations that can be seen in surviving examples. Still, one can see the likeness to Jenifer's patent. Beyond that, we can only assume.
According to Ord Bur. correspondence, the New Jenifer was built up somewhat different so that they were easily distinguished from the 1st Model but it is unclear exactly how they differed. Thus questions remain. Why the varations in the 1st model tree? Are these contractor variations or something more systematic? What is a true 2nd model? How about the Transistion saddle? From the surviving record we know these patterns existed but with so few surviving examples it is difficult to draw conclusions. Hence the consistency of my amibiguity.
In any event, given the numbers if one was to desire to duplicate a CS Jenifer tree the obvious and practical choice would probably be the 1st Model Jenifer. Then, one must choose which variation to replicate. Beyond that, while the pommel and cantle should be percisely duplicated the bars may have to be adjusted to properly fit some modern horses. Would that change the appearance? I am not a saddle tree maker so I don't know. Regardless, as I told you in a private message I will be happy to help do what I can to make this effort a reality.
Mark, while I would dearly love to bring some original Jenifer saddles to the COI- it is impossible. I personally do not own any and it is difficult to ask my collector's to do so. My experience has been that even under the best of circumstances whenever you haul old saddles like these around you always leave a little bit behind you whever you go. Their age and fragility makes this an increasingly risky exercise. I am sorry.

As a side note about Walter H Jenifer.....he was obviously a difficult man to deal with. While very educated, intelligent, capable and thorough, from the correspondence and record others that associated with him “might” have also used un-flattering words like opportunist, pompous, demanding, greedy and self-serving. His relationship with the CS Ordnance Dept was difficult and strained to say the least. I would like to do a story on him and his dealings with the Confederacy regarding his wonderful saddle but I have yet to discover a photograph of him. I have the story....a most interesting one too, but no photo.

BTW, here are a few more Jennies to enjoy!

Ken R Knopp

[malachi]

Re: more jenny tree talk

Bowden sent me some close ups of their jenifer and it is as best I can see a grimsley. It bears no resemblance to a jenny what so ever. Even the bars have the notch cut out near the front like the grimsley. Jorge at Hadlock Fox has sent me some images of their pommel which I will post tomorrow along with the Bowden tree. By the way, Mr. Steele told me that he produces a very accurate mac tree also.
john greg tucker

[The Egyptian Homeguard]

Re: more jenny tree talk

Great, we'll be looking forward to them. Since you have his contact see if we can get some good images of the Mac too... especially the pommel. Thanks much. Z

[Jesse Bailey]

Re: more jenny tree talk

Never fear fellers! The Jenny trees are here! I have followed this thread for the past few days, and thought it was the right time to finally add to this discussion. It just so happens, that for the last 4 years or so, myself and a friend have been working on making a authentic, true Jenifer tree based on the two Gettysburg examples and two in a private collection. These trees will be as accurate as possible in every way, including dimensions, type of wood used and construction details. This project started when the trees being offered to the reenacting world were found to be sub-par. A friend of mine, who is well versed in all types of master carpentry, especially 19th century material culture, was approached by Mr. Nick Nichols in the hope that he could offer a resolution to the problem with an authentic Jenifer tree. This project was put on hold for a while as more research was done, wood was cut and stored, and the proper materials, hardware and tools were accumulated. To give respect to Nick (Aden) Nichols, he loaned us the 1st original Jenifer tree and we researched all of it while it was in 4 pieces. But not wanting to use just Nick's tree, because of a verbal agreement we had with Nick, to not use his tree to sell to the general public, we decided to put his aside and use the two "new model" Jenifer trees in the Gettysburg collection, plus one Jenifer in a private location in Atlanta. Although we are not using Nick's tree, so to speak, it conforms closely to the trees in the Gettysburg collection (not a 1/4" difference between in regards to width of cantle, seat length, etc.). This tree will be made with the correct pommel and cantle, the bars will be a close approximate except where problems occured on the originals; this will be corrected. For example, flatness on the bottom of the bar, width of the bar and a slightly different angle. Everything else will look like you are viewing an original Jenifer saddle. Also the construction will be as per the original tree. With two of the examples we have seen having a one piece pommel and cantle using iron reinforcements. All hardware will be of Japaned iron while the escutcheon plates and pommel shields will be copper, tin or brass depending on what the customer wants. The wood itself will be aged beech as per the Confederate regulations and the originals we have seen without the rawhide. You will not be able to get a saddle tree like this from any Modern Saddle maker, that we know of. Pictures to be posted soon. We are also going to offer a very authentic version of the Texas saddle tree, which will be worked on after the Jenifer project. If you have any questions, please feel free to ask.
Thanks,
Jesse

[Mark Choate]

Re: more jenny tree talk

Jesse,
Do you have a time frame on the posting of the photos??

regards,
Mark

[Jesse Bailey]

Re: more jenny tree talk

Hey Mark, yes give us at least a week and I'll post some pic's of the tree in the raw wood so you can see what all go's in to a authentic saddle tree. thank's Jesse.

[Ken Knopp]

Re: more jenny tree talk

Well!!!!, this is interesting and excellent news! For one, I applaud your efforts and attention to detail.
I am a bit unclear however....are you making the "First-Model" (Patent) Jenifer tree or the "New Jenifer"? I could not quite tell from your report. Sorry. I must say, I like the idea of the hardware variation. I am not a metalurgist but you may want to consider brass as first choice then zinc as a second choice... before tin. Zinc was mined in Virginia in those days then smelted in great quantity at a Confederate Laboratory works in Petersburg during the war. Zinc is a component of brass. From my observation, Confederate brass shows widely varying amounts of zinc and copper. Brass foundries, then as now, typically use a 2 to 1 ratio of copper and zinc to make fine yellow brass, and a 3 to 1 ratio to make sheet brass. Some CS hardware was very heavy in zinc- almost pure zinc (or bluish silver) probably when copper was short and others were very red showing heavy doses of copper.
Pewter plates are also sometimes found but they are comparatively rare. Pewter requires a 4 to 1 ratio of lead and tin as its principal components. While tin was used for escutcheon plates it is far rarer (at least from surviving "eastern" originals I have seen) than zinc and pewter. Just some thoughts to consider.
Great news!! I cannot wait to see the photos!! Congratulations on your efforts!!

Ken R Knopp

[Jesse Bailey]

Re: more jenny tree talk

Hi Ken, yes to coin your pharse it will be the new jenifer or second model jenifer. We will also be making one based on the McCloughlin tree as well. I guess I should have said tin plated or dipped instead of solid tin, but brass will be the most prominent.

[Tom Craig]

Re: more jenny tree talk

That's awesome!! Can't wait to see the pictures!

Tom Craig
1st Maine Cavalry

[The Egyptian Homeguard]

Re: more jenny tree talk

I would have been happy to see the pictures of the trees that were to be posted a couple of days ago... Now we may already have another source!?!?!? Great minds do work along the same lines... and so do ours! ;) Z

[malachi]

Re: more jenny tree talk








The above links will take you to several images of the Jenifer pommel sent me by Jorge of Hadlock Fox. It is a wood tree but fiberglassed. I assume it can be left bare as well as I have purchased a rawhided tree from them in the past. The other images are of Bowden's jenifer tree and are discolored by some unknown entity in the ether. This is how they came to me. They are a Grimsley as far as I am concerned. I am so sorry for the delay but I'm not too quick in the computer buisness and had a hard time loading them.
with regards,
John Gregory Tucker

[rbruno]

Re: more jenny tree talk

John,
I can't view the pictures. Maybe it is me.