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Re: more jenny tree talk

My gosh, that thing looks like it came out of Dr. Frankenstein's lab! :wink_smil Although I could show you photos from published books of saddles that are referred to as "this or that" type of Jennie that would make that look tame by comparison.

Still, I'd stay away from his stuff if that is his definition.

If we can ever get a few days without snow, I will visit Steele and see how that is progressing.

regards,
Mark

**Jesse Bailey** · 02-10-2011, 02:46 PM

Re: more jenny tree talk

i agree with the above statments, the pommel on the one looks like a mod McClellan, and fiberglassed as well. The other saddle looks more like a Grimsley but even wrong for that. Even though the saddle tree is at least wood, the rear of the bar has seasoned checked open and it has modern staples holding it together. Rather poorly put together in my opinion.

**malachi** · 02-10-2011, 03:18 PM

Re: more jenny tree talk

Jesse, do you guys do your own rawhiding??? Do you think a non bleached finish might be a possibillity. I like the patina of the non bleached rawhide.
with regards,
john g tucker

**Jesse Bailey** · 02-10-2011, 05:03 PM

Re: more jenny tree talk

Yes, a non-bleached rawhide will be what is used, as well as a thinner rawhide wich is more common and authentic.

**ButtermilkRanger** · 02-10-2011, 08:47 PM

Re: more jenny tree talk

Who did you talk to at Bowden? When I had Mr. Francis make my Jenifer tree 10-12 years ago, I thought it was a pretty decent representation. The pommel was almost identical to the fiberglassed one in the pictures from Hadlock Fox and the cantle was no where near as severe as this obvious Grimsley you have here. In fact, I found Francis Bowden and the people working for him to be easy to talk to and willing to work with me to get me the product I wanted. If anything, I thought my pommel was maybe a bit too thick and it was pretty low, but it was well made and sturdy. I ended up selling the Jenifer to buy the materials to make my current Texas saddle, but when it came time to buy another tree, I didn't hesitate to go back to Francis Bowden. He's pretty knowledgable on his historic saddles (well, maybe a little more knowledgeable than your average western roping tree maker) and I'm convinced that the pics here are mis-labled. Even the Jenifer on his website does not bear any resemblance to this Grimsley.

**malachi** · 02-11-2011, 08:21 AM

Re: more jenny tree talk

I cannot remember her name, but she asked a fellow in the office if he could photograph her a jenny tree and this is what he identified. The one they show on their site under speciality saddles has a different pommel, but the identical cantle. If they have another pattern I can't find it anywhere.
regards,
john g tucker

**ButtermilkRanger** · 02-11-2011, 06:05 PM

Re: more jenny tree talk

My guess would be that Julio, Juan, Jesus, or Jorge or whomever from Cuidad Juarez who work at Bowden these days inadvertantly took a picture of a Grimsley and gave it to an equally clueless receptionist and sent that to you. I won't pass judgement that the cantle on the Jenifer saddle on his website is identical to the Grimsley in the pics you posted here, but I will admit that at least the Grimsley seat was more severe. I bought my Jenifer from Mr. Francis probably 12 years ago, but he had the same Jenifer pic on his website even then. However, the Jenifer I received had a cantle very similar to the one posted in the third set of pics of the originals posted here by Ken. I can't say whether or not Bowden is trying to pass off a Grimsley for a Jenifer in this day and age, but I think I'm pretty demanding in what I will and will not accept as far as authenticity and overall, I was pleased with my Jenifer and the quality and workmanship I got from Francis Bowden all three times we've ordered trees from him. The turn around time was too long (in my opinion) and he was a bit more pricey at the time than the other historic tree makers out there, but I thought his product was worth the wait in the end.

Here's my take on the whole Jenifer debate, not that it's worth much. Ken, who by all accounts is the best expert we have handy on all things Confederate Cavalry, has generously posted several pics of original Jenifer saddles. If you look closely, no two saddles posted are exactly alike. In some cases, as in the Grimsley-esq pommel in pic #6 of the first set of pics, the saddles barely resemble one another. As living historians it becomes very difficult for us to sit here and say one modern saddle tree looks more like the original than another. It's difficult because one original looks so much different than another. By and large, we have to choose the product that has the best construction and that best represents the majority of the originals we've compared it to. It's for that reason that I chose Bowden over James Custom Woodshop when I got ready to build my Texas saddle. His Texas trees were more representative of the majority of the originals I'd seen. Not to say James' trees were wrong, they were just different.

I am by no means saying Francis Bowden is producing the best Jenifer tree on the market. Nor am I advocating any of us buy from this guy. I'm only saying that I have bought from this vendor and I have done some research on my own, and I can't say that his trees are wrong. They are just different maybe from what the next guy has. That in itself, can be completely authentic.

We have to be extremely careful in this end of the hobby when we speak of absolutes. There is always someone who is going to come along and present the documentation to prove us wrong. It's just the nature of research.

**malachi** · 02-12-2011, 08:36 AM

Re: more jenny tree talk

I couldn't agree more and did not mean to impune the work of anyone. I know a couple of saddlers who swear by bowden. I meant only that if a pattern closer to the patent model exists in their pattern inventory, they have not shown it to me thus far. I am sure you are right in my not having spoken to the right person. Please understand that I have no favorite in this thing, and wouldn't want to cast dispersions on a fine company owing to this one set of images! Sorry if i sounded like I was.
warmest regards,
John G Tucker

**ButtermilkRanger** · 02-12-2011, 08:31 PM

Re: more jenny tree talk

No harm, no foul. I understand completely and I'm all in favor of a top quality Jenifer tree from reputable supplier. I'd like one myself. I just wanted it understood that while Bowden may not be the cure to our woes, they really aren't the problem.

**woolhat1864** · 02-19-2011, 10:29 AM

Re: more jenny tree talk

I've been going through Caba's book on Southern Saddles and here is what he had to say about Jenifer saddles.

Jenifer capialized on learning from first hand knowledge the attributes and defects in the archetecture of the experimental horse equipment. Unfortunately, the inventor did not operate a saddlery which caused confusion in the percise details of the saddle pattern for local Southern makers. The Jenifer saddle,therefore, was exposed to local individual interpertation by the saddlers. The manufactures, wether large or small, retained the flat, English seat and rigging, but compromised and altered the structure of the cantle and pommel. Of all the saddles used during the rebellion by the Confederacy, both army issued or privatley purchased, the Jenifer was produced with the greatest variations without any attempt to establish a standardized form.

Sounds to me like there is a basic shape but no real pattern as far as the pommel and cantel goes.

Tommy Jackson
Critter Co.

**Mark Choate** · 02-19-2011, 04:53 PM

Re: more jenny tree talk

Hey there, Tommy,

Yep, I was reading that very portion of Caba's book a few weeks back (pg. 120) and posted the same quote on another Jenifer thread. I think that quote just about sums up the search for the definitive Jennie tree. Just too many variations to ever say that one is the end all, be all.

Good to see you post and hope you will do it with more frequency!

Mark

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