Horsemanship and Horsemastery

[TexCavly]

Re: Horsemanship and Horsemastery

I guess my philosophy is pretty simple: Do not pamper your horse. Your horse is a tool, not a child. Take care of your horse. Respect your horse. Ride your horse. Ride your horse some more. Ride him in the worse terrain you can possibly imagine. Ride him there again, then go find some other worse place to ride. Then shoot him and buy a mule.

But what do I know? I ride a mule 90% of the time. Horses are for the uneducated. LOL

You sir, have taken the words right out of my mouth!
I've only been riding for 3 years and only took lessons once as a kid for a week. Since then I have come a loooong way. I've considered myself a good horseman in the past but I've come realize that a good horseman isn't just a good rider but clearly understands the way a horse/mule thinks in all conditions and knows how to work the animal in a way that gets his job done. One thing I've gleaned from my little experience is that the more diverse conditions you put your horse through successfully, the more prepared you will be for any challenges you will face in the future.

On that note does anybody want to train my mule fer me?

[ButtermilkRanger]

Re: Horsemanship and Horsemastery

On that note does anybody want to train my mule fer me?

People don't train mules. Mules train people.

[The Egyptian Homeguard]

Re: Horsemanship and Horsemastery

Perfect military seat is for West Point graduates... Not farm boys form the west, not gents from the south... I'm sure that some fellows from the South did attend a military school or served in a cavalry company militia or some other such... but be willing to wager the generic trooper (that which we all should be striving to portray) most likely had no formal horsemanship education. They most likely kicked to go and pulled to whoa...

Horses were a conveyance, like our cars today. Yes they were living breathing machines. Did guys get attached to them? You bet! A friend ran across a letter in the special collections dept. of the local college from an artillerist writing home to his wife that he'd never name another horse because the CS sharpshooters killed his favorite wheelers... They spent time with horses because if they wanted to get somewhere a horse was involved or they had to use the shoe-leather express... Yes, even the infantry guys knew horses. They could ID which end the hay went in and the crap came out... more than some of the reenactors I've met can tell you about a horse... Z

[TexCavly]

Re: Horsemanship and Horsemastery

People don't train mules. Mules train people.

I will remember that.
So would you be willing to let my mule train you? Cause I'm in the market.

[Forrestcavalryman]

Re: Horsemanship and Horsemastery

They most likely kicked to go and pulled to whoa...

Hehe, if that's the case I'm doing pretty well! My sister is one of those "perfect seat" people, I'm more along the lines of "old school" I trust my mare with my life, and I can sit in the saddle and have a firm seat. It does bother me to see "experienced horsemen" at local trail rides saddle their filthy, cracked hoof, underweight horses, and then do their best to break the poor animals jaw through the whole ride. And then to top it all off after the ride is over they leave the poor thing still tightly saddled, unwatered, and overheated and then go off and have a cold soda and BBQ while the horse is tied to the trailer back at the parking space!

[Paul L Muller]

Re: Horsemanship and Horsemastery

This is the best thread yet!! I am one of those who live with my horses and spend time every day with them, just not enough time . The drafts get used like a tractor...when the is something to do. My saddle horse dose'nt get the miles we both need because "riding is fun and I have to much to do to have fun right now". This thread is the kick in the butt I need to get my butt in the saddle more. I do beleive with everything that's in me that a well rounded horse is the horse the dose it all , from pulling a buggy to trails or working cows. The more life experiances they aquirre the more they can handle and the safer they are. I admit that I take having my horses around and at arms length away ...I take it for granted, so thankyou for the wake up call. plm

[wavey1us]

Re: Horsemanship and Horsemastery

[QUOTE=The Egyptian Homeguard;196106]Perfect military seat is for West Point graduates... Not farm boys form the west, not gents from the south... I'm sure that some fellows from the South did attend a military school or served in a cavalry company militia or some other such... but be willing to wager the generic trooper (that which we all should be striving to portray) most likely had no formal horsemanship education. They most likely kicked to go and pulled to whoa...
I would agree with you to a point. The fellers back in ACW did not have the luxury of being taught or instructed in the "perfect military seat", save for officers, etc. However we do. How you sit or ride in the saddle effects not only your balance, but it also effects the horse. The military seat is a two way street, it helps the rider as well as the horse. The seat is not just for your comfort. We are fortunate that a McClellan saddle tends to be a little more forgiving with a poor seat, which that is one reason it was designed.
I am not saying that everybody take riding lessons or go to a trainer; however, take a look at the manuals (where they do address the seat of the trooper) and apply to your riding.

[Mark Choate]

Re: Horsemanship and Horsemastery

Wonderful job, fellas of posting some great information here! I was so hoping to see this type of imput and participation and you did not let me down! But don’t stop here, keep it coming!

So many vantage points are being represented here. Some who are able to have their animals with them on premises, some who board them off-site. Different types of riding disciplines, techniques and philosophies, value of manuals, value of saddle time.

Regardless of the degree of formal training or discipline of equitation, things such as balance and depth of seat remain constants and keys.

Would like to see some more suggestions on how you address certain needs or matters. For example, personally, when breaking a newer horse to get them to neck-rein, I like to take them into the dense woods and ride as they repeatedly come to saplings/trees and are dependant on my que to turn. The continual opposite side rein pressure as well as my leg pressure soon tells them my intentions and in no time, they are neck reining. Toss out a problem and then tell us how you dealt with it. Or, ask the group how to deal with it.

Also, for group consumption, our lives today sometime prevent us from having lots of time to devote to saddle time. This is compounded when you board off-site. So, if you have say 3 hours a week to ride………which do you view as more effective? A) one 3 hour ride or, B) three 1-hour rides?

Thanks again for the good response to this thread.

Mark

[Longrope]

Re: Horsemanship and Horsemastery

My take on this a bit different from many of you that have commented.

The first is that I have about a dozen horses that I use on the ranch, all of them are at different levels of training. Some are green-broke broncs, while a few are really nice bridle horses, with a good handle to them. Well... just one is, and he has his moments. They are not babied, they are meant to work. From the start of calving to shipping in the fall, those horses are expected to to carry me 8-12 hours a day, which is why I have so many of them. (I should also explain that it's not every day. Ever since I got my own ranch and cattle, there seems to be more fencing and mechanic work than riding. Now a few years ago, when I worked for other ranchers, it was 6 days a week.)

When it comes to training, I don't plan to train my horses, I just ride them, a lot. I also ride them with a job in mind, usually working cattle. It's amazing how fast a young horse comes along when he can see what you're trying to get him to do. Even with that, I plan to take years, not months, to make a well trained horse. Of course, if I had fewer horses, they would come along faster...

I do lots of ground work, but only when they're first trained. After they start earning their keep I don't want to have to spin them in a circle for 10 minutes before we start our day. Most important to me is that the horse has "manners." A horse should stand quietly, tie, trailer easily and respect my space.

The idea of respect is a good one; the problem is, that while many riders respect their horse, the horse doesn't respect them. This can be a very dangerous situation, considering that a horse outweighs a person by a 1000 pounds. A real easy way to look at this is from the horse's perspective. They are herd animals with a pecking order. The horses owner is included in the pecking order. If the person is higher in the order than the horse, all is well. But if the horse is superior, then it's trouble. The horse walks all over the person, it nips them, it won't listen to commands in the saddle, basically, it lacks "manners". Hitting or abusing a horse doesn't establish dominance, it proves to the horse that the "hitter" is submissive. Within the pecking order the lower ones always strike back.

I realize that much of this doesn't apply to most folks on this forum, I just thought since I use horses for a living, in much the same manner as was common in the 19th century, I would share some of my insights.

[IowaYank]

Re: Horsemanship and Horsemastery

Mark, I did the same thing when teaching my horse to neck rein. I got him three years ago and the very first time I went to put a bit in him he instantly tensed up at the site of the bit. He was terrified of the bit. He pulled back hard, locked up his legs, and was in freak out mode. I am convinced that the person who had him before me was very hard on him with a bit. It took me a summer to get him to take the bit. I started out by just trying to get my fingers in and around his mouth. I would put mollasses or honey on my finger so it was a treat to have my finger in the place where the bit would sit. I was keeping him at a place a couple miles from me so I worked on his mouth with my fingers like this everyday. I slowly worked up to a pencil sized stick. I would try to put that in the position of where the bit sits. I eventually worked up to a bit. I put molassas or honey on the bit again. I also used a modern bit with a roller on it to occupy his mind. This all worked out pretty well.

[Mark Choate]

Re: Horsemanship and Horsemastery

Sakes alive, look at all of this good info!!

Dan, great points on enticing him to take the bit and you're correct, a lot of folks believe that you have to beat them into obedience and bad habits can and will develop.........

And Casey, your "real world" usage of your animals to work your ranch is worth gold as you depend on them as others would tools or trucks, etc. so we all need to listen to such advice. I especially liked your paragraph on the importance of having their respect. To them, that pecking order is natural and important. We see it when they feed or go for water out in the pasture, and I have heard visitors say that "one is bullying the other" but it is the way it is supposed to be for the survival of the herd. We must understand that and establish ourselves in that pecking order.

Both are great posts!!

Mark

[volcav]

Re: Horsemanship and Horsemastery

Also, for group consumption, our lives today sometime prevent us from having lots of time to devote to saddle time. This is compounded when you board off-site. So, if you have say 3 hours a week to ride………which do you view as more effective? A) one 3 hour ride or, B) three 1-hour rides?

Thanks again for the good response to this thread.

Mark

As someone who's boarded horses I'd have to say that the answer to this question is a bit more in depth than either just A or B. When I was boarding horses it was pretty much catch what time in the saddle you can. One week you might be able to get in 3 one hour rides and on another you might be able to only get out to the barn once and you ride all you can while you're there. From a training perspective I'd go with the three one hour rides for teaching something new because of attention span, retention, and repetition. From a bonding perspective I'd have to say three hours at once is better for that. For a horse and rider both who don't ride or get ridden every day it can sometimes take 30 minutes for both to settle down with each other and get comfortable. Once the comfort level sets in that's when I've noticed what I'll call better communication between me and my horse. I start noticing that the horse is picking up ques that I wasn't even aware I was giving. Now that I think about it that communication may be more one way from the horse to me after I've settled in.

On the topic of respect and trying to manhandle a horse I can give an example of what didn't work and what did work in two similar scenarios with me and the same horse. I was trimming my mares feet one day. I don't do it very often so I'm not fast at it. I had the front feet done and was working on the first back foot. She kept yanking her foot away from me. A couple of times of this and I lost me temper. I got rough with her and she got rough right back. I got kicked in the mouth. Fast forward a few years and I'm trimming her feet again. I got to the back feet and she started yanking her foot away again. This time I didn't loose my temper. I put her on a lounge line and made her do some laps. I retied her and went back to work on her feet. When she yanked her foot away again, she went back on the lounge line. About four times on the lounge line and she got the picture. It was easier to stand there and let me trim her feet than to keep doing laps. I didn't have any more trouble out of her.

I tell of my mistakes like this hoping that someone else will avoid making the same ones.

[malachi]

Re: Horsemanship and Horsemastery

I always wondered how much training the mounts actually got toward year three or so of the war. I know that remounts were pretty hard to come by at times and that they weren't always coming from military sources, so did they just get on the job training in battle??? Time must have been precious when matters were pressed so do you think they just took the time to prepare them for combat, noise, flags, sabres etc... or just take 'em on in? (I am talking about broke horses here.)
John G Tucker

[wavey1us]

Re: Horsemanship and Horsemastery

Teaching a horse to neck rein is just on small aspect to directional change. Teaching a horse to yield to leg pressure will pay bigger dividends. Reins should be used for in conjunction with your legs to provide directional aids/controls. When I mean legs, I do not mean spurs. I mean the gradual increase in pressure with the leg and heels to get the horse to move in the direction you want them go in. If they are not getting the message, the spur is then used (in the correct manner). I do not know how many times I have seen guys try to "plow horse" their mount into a turn and their legs are perfectly still. You have to use both sets of aids (reins and legs) to move your mount in the direction you want them to go.

[Paul L Muller]

Re: Horsemanship and Horsemastery

I have always been very, very hesitant to let others ride my horses as I teach them to respond to leg ques so I can stay "out of their mouth". When on a ride and I want any degree of turn, I give steady pressure with the leg [the horse is to move away from the pressure] and give the mount the oppertunity to move before backing up the message with the bit. The key is consistancy and repitition. My new horse and I are still learning each other and I see great things in our future, She tests me and I stay cool and in control and ease her to the right decision. plm