Just an observation

[Outrider]

I have been looking into this civilian saddle thing for quite some time now and in doing so three things stand out to me in regards to someone such as my self who is interested in doing accurate civilian impressions mounted when it calls for it and that is:

1. Reproductions of accurate, documented pre war civilian styles/types , other than the obvious Texas/Hope pattern, and that when one can find a decent tree, are almost non exsistent. There is the "Muley" offered by one maker at least but I am finding the "Muley' questionable for a pre war pattern so I am unconvinced it really is appropriate after all. There is the english type offered by another very good maker which I believe may be (others would know better than I) TOO early of a pattern as well as ....lets just say....hard to afford... these days. So repop options are very very limited. A discouraging thing that.
2. Most original saddles I have seen for sale, again other than Texas types, are either too fragile to be used hard, even if one is so inclined to use an original, and are either too small for many of us to use or require so much work to restore to using condition as to make that almost unattainable and that is assuming one can find a saddler to do period correct work on something like that to begin with.
3. unless I am totally missing something, as usaul what we all accepted as "correct" a few years ago are not considered so now, or there is significant doubt enough to make someone like myself very leary of using them. Having said that I have got my eye on a couple early 20th century english saddles on eaby I believe would work quite well as a period saddle as I see many similarities that I do not see on more modern examples.

So it is frustrating that only ONE maker even offers anything other than the military type saddles and it frankly, leaves me wondering what , if any, other options there are for someone such as myself who is interested in doing more pre war or even limited war time mounted civilian impressions of which, by the way, there are dozens of opportunities for accurate portrayals that call for a mounted civilian and would even be LESS accurate by going unmounted.

Any thoughts/ideas on it?

I suppose I am most interested in the english types not because I know anything about the discipline, I do not, as I have a western background , but I figure they are very very underrepresented in general and using a Texas which IMHO are now OVER represented, generally, for a pre war civilian in Georgia feels just wrong to me for the most part. So I am leaning towards and English rig.
Also, I posted here and not the civilian folder because I think I am the only one interested in it on any regular basis . I dont know of any other "authentic" civilians who are but they should be for a lot of the portrayals I am seeing being done out there.

[The Egyptian Homeguard]

Re: Just an observation

Brother Patrick,

You are not the only other one interested... I hoped to engage Aden and Ken into this topic a few months ago and it fizzeled pretty quick. The MOST information I can glean is from Ken's own web page; there as you know are quite a few saddles on it with their types listed, but many lack history other than "private collection". I know Ken can not divulge where they are, and may have to speculate to their actual age, but I agree with you on the lack of saddlery and sources...

Even information on correct patterns is scarce. Hence, the Buena Vista talked about in the "Stirrup" thread... I have a wonderful riding plantation that I'm sure is a recovered antique, but is it a period correct piece? I'm not sure. I'm going to pack it along to the CoI and get some opinions.

I'm feeling that since Texas saddles are what is commonly avaliable other than Macs we are about to see an explosion of reproduction Texas saddles in the field for the 150's... leading to an over representation of them at reenactments. That's one reason I'm shifting gears possibly away from a texas to having a Kilgore reproduced...

Ken, Aden, Casey all you gents who have dabbled in civilian gear PLEASE chime in and enlighten us...

Zack

[TexCavly]

Re: Just an observation

Paddy, at ITV I felt the same way when I was riding a Mac trying to portray a civilian. That is why I'm going to strip down that (forgive the term) "Plantation Saddle" on my facebook taking pictures as I go. My brother is a handy woodworker and I can do a little leather work so I should be able to make an okay representation. I'll tell you right now it's gonna look ROUGH, but I'll just tell folks my dads a saddler and it is a saddle I made for myself as soon as I could buy the materials from him.

[Ken Knopp]

Re: Just an observation

You fellas bring up a good point- that is, the lack of attention by current saddle makers to address this void in civilian saddles. Well, thank GOD for captialism!! When there is a need then there will be someone to step in to fill that need ...for a profit- naturally. So, the first step it is up to you fellas to make it known to them that you "want" this need addressed. Someone will surely step up.
As for patterns....I've written extensively about this subject but, the more common pre-war civilian patterns were somewhat geographical in nature. In general, across the spectrum they were the English, Somerset, Spanish and Half Spanish, Kilgore (coming of popularity just before the war), Wagon saddles, California, Texas, other horned patterns such as Attakapas and Hopes (there are others too) ....all with wide variations among makers and regions, etc. While one can find "out there" in the market place (such as on ebay) some English and Somerset and occaisionally a Kilgore saddle that can be re-worked to accomodate- it would be great to see some of our modern saddlers make an economical/affordable reproduction of one or more of these patterns. For example, the Somersets would not be too difficult to make off of English trees and, a Kilgore is akin to a McClellan. For me, the Spanish and Half Spanish saddles are very, very common and correct for our period but they are not currently reproduced (at least economically) and would likely be a bit more difficult to do so. A big question is affordability. To do this right - it costs!! Research, labor and materials for these saddles are higher than for your standard Macs, Jennies and Texas saddles. Still, it could be done. The question is desire and effort.
"If" someone wanted to seriously undertake this project I would be happy to help by giving them my research and, access to several originals for making patterns. In the meantime start "barking" to the saddle makers to address this- someone will eventually wake up ....and for now......keep an eye out on ebay!

Ken R Knopp

[TexCavly]

Re: Just an observation

Mr. Knopp could I take a saddle such as this one (it has a tree broken at the pommel which I will have to replace) and stick a period style horn on it and call it a Half Spanish? Or would I be better off just staying with the current style pommel? There should be a picture but if it doesn't show up I'll find a find another example.

[TexCavly]

Re: Just an observation

Ok, so like this Somerset from your site. http://confederatesaddles.com/cswp/?...page=3&pid=590

[Outrider]

Re: Just an observation

Thanks Much Ken. As you know we have discussed this civilian thing and lack thereof before and I didnt mean to make you type out info I know you have already covered in other threads. I know of those, and have read most, and find the info contained very helpful as too proper types etc. I think you are right in that we will have to push for it. I am at the point of wondering what all it would require to take an early 20th century English saddle and have it reworked by some competent saddler as an alternative given the lack of them being reproduced. Mr Lilie does simply beautiful work but I am afraid, at least in these times ,they are prohibitively expensive for the likes of a poor dirt scratcher such as my self to get serious about.

Anyone need a barn full of modern roping and /or western tack? Come on down everything is for sale but the doors and windows and the windows are negotiable.

[Ken Knopp]

Re: Just an observation

John, I could not see the photo you post but did see the link to the saddle on my web site. That is a somerset. Simply put, it has an English tree but with a more pronounced pommel and cantle than the standard "flat" English saddle of the period. Unfortunately, much of the time the distinction between an English and a Somerset is almost indistinguishable except in name only. Still, in general.... the difference is in the pommel and cantle. English (trees) saddles are very flat and Somersets are more pronounced. Also, I might add.....Somersets tended to embellish the finishing of the saddle with more add-ons like pommel or cantle or skirt rolls, padded seats, underpadding, etc.

Paddy, an old English tree or saddle with the right leather treatment (more period in tanning and finish such as underpadding, etc) but also with correct hardware would suffice for a period reenactment saddle. These are often found on ebay. Modern ones have the wrong arch in the pommels, wrong leather treatments, modern materials, padding and hardware. It is hard to see sometimes but after you look at alot of old period photos of saddles then you should be able to start seeing the differences in the modern ones and subsequently you can then start to see what you are looking for on ebay saddles. Quite often I see some real good'ns. From there it is a matter of conversion. Its not a perfect science but it can suffice until you can get a saddle maker to make you a "dead-on" repro.
Sadly, this story is in reality another age-old example of money and evolution of the hobby.

Ken R Knopp

[Outrider]

Re: Just an observation

Thats what I was thinking Ken. I've got a pretty good idea of what the pommel cantle etc and the leather needs to be. Not sure of the hardware but i am also assuming the typical 3 billet arrangement would have to be replaced with a single billet? Actually, I am following two early 20th century models on ebay right now that I think have potential. I may shoot you a link in an email to get your thoughts on them if that is alright by you and thanks again for all the help and advice and research.

[volcav]

Re: Just an observation

This lady may be able to hook you up with something if you can specify what you want. She's experienced in the style of saddle being discussed.

http://www.4beatstitchery.com/

[The Egyptian Homeguard]

Re: Just an observation

Jerry have ypu had any dealings with the lady from 4beat? I found her while looking at Kilgore saddles... If she'd be willing to take on a period correct rebuild cool, if not I'm sure Nick Duvall would.... Z

[malachi]

Re: Just an observation

Stuart Lilie makes an 1850's civilian saddle. It is on his site and has a short description of it origins. Looks kind of like a drivers saddle.
John G Tucker

[Outrider]

Re: Just an observation

He sure does and it makes me drool and thats about all I can do with it right now. The man does wonderful work. I just talked with him about all of this and he generously gave me some excellent ideas.

[volcav]

Re: Just an observation

Zack,
I talked to Gloria by phone about seven years ago before I started working overseas. She's a nice lady. Her concern back then was like everyone else a source for good trees made. She had someone specially making them for her back then. She seemed interested in the possibility of making period correct saddles. Back then I was trying to think of a way to market a large number of saddles but I couldn't come up with the capital to invest in the idea. She enjoys her work and is very knowledgable. The volume of commercial production required to make the saddles affordable and profitable at the same time wasn't possible then. I'd say get in touch with her, tell her what you're interested in and see what she says.

I've come to the conclusion that the hand stitched level of authenticity desired is going to make the kind of saddles desired pretty expensive to reproduce. People want a decent return for the time they put into research, special production of materials, and the hand done labor. That shouldn't be held against them. I'd want it too. The other side of that coin is that while I admire and respect the quality of the work and all that goes into it, I find it difficult to pay the asking price, not because I don't think it's worth it, but because I simply don't have it as disposable income. I'd love to have one of Mr. Lillie's militia saddles. According to his website that saddle could cover living history from the American Revolution to the Civil War.

[rbruno]

Re: Just an observation

Off all the names of civilian saddles that have been discussed in this thread and others, just so I can put a visual with a name, what type of saddle is shown on the 4beat website? Not a question of if the stitching, or other items are CW period, just curious about the design and what it would be called based on the discussions at hand.