Just an observation

[The Egyptian Homeguard]

Re: Just an observation

John I like Stuarts saddles, but I can't drop 1800 on a saddle less the fittings... No girth, surcingle, stirrups, stirrup leathers, pillion, saddle housing or coat straps... just not in my current budget. Maybe one day... maybe not.

Jerry, Thanks for the heads up about Glorias willingness to work on period saddles. I believe I have a pretty good tree to start from...Think the one on the end would work for the basis of a Kilgore?

Rob, I'd say they are some bastardized cross between a Kilgore, Plantation and Kentucky Spring seat.... Just my opinion. Someone more knowledgeable than I should answer that...

[Outrider]

Re: Just an observation

Here's a nice one.

http://www.mcpheetersantiquemilitaria.com/04_horse_equip/04_item_003.htm

[Mark Choate]

Re: Just an observation

Patrick,

Was it you or Zack that was considering getting a Kilgore? I would love to see someone riding one of those. If only I had an original tree, I have someone who can reproduce it.

Is there anyone out there riding one?

thx,
Mark

[Outrider]

Re: Just an observation

I would love one Mark but I wouldnt know where to begin to find a tree for that thing. Zack has a very nice saddle that has a whole lot of potential to be a Kilgore, I believe. I have been scouring every place I can think of for something like that and with zero results so far..
I would love to see more of all those types mixed in with all the Texas saddles out there nowadays. Like Ken said..noone will do it unless there is a market I reckon.

[volcav]

Re: Just an observation

Zack,
I looked at your saddle. It's pretty awesome as is. I don't have the educated eye that Ken does but to me it looks like you've got a basic model Kilgore already. I don't know why you couldn't just replace the modern looking hardware with period hardware and saddle up with it. It's got the high pointy looking pommel with the wide cantle that comes down to a smooth junction with the rest of the saddle and the long skirts. That's just my uneducated opinion from looking at pictures. Is there something other than the hardware that I'm missing?

As for 4beat I've seen some that look like Ken's pictures of Kilgores and Somersets and seen actual Buena Vistas and Kentucky Rollbacks as well as restored antique western saddles. She's done some beautiful work over the years that I've watched her site. I still intend to send her my Kentucky Rollback for restoration one of these days but I have other things to take care of first. Please don't take me for an expert. I'm not. Most of what I know about this topic is what I've learned on this forum. Going off what Ken said about capitalism and the free market in respect to getting 1860's era civilian saddles reproduced, the more competition among the different saddle makers will increase the quality and lower the price of the product. I really don't mean for that to sound bad.

Another thing to consider is that most of the saddle makers we generally talk about here focus on military and western (Texas) style saddles. Gloria focuses on the "Plantation" style as we call it today. It's what she studies and what she rides. I'm not knocking anyone here I'm just pointing out that civilian saddles are what she does. If anyone decides to give her a call let us know how it turns out.

[volcav]

Re: Just an observation

Ken,
Is there any way to get the specs on an original Kilgore saddle tree and have one made up from that?

[Outrider]

Re: Just an observation

I tend to agree with you about Zack's saddle Jerry. I am looking foward to getting a closer look at it.

[Ken Knopp]

Re: Just an observation

Guys here are some tips to identifying these saddles.....

The McPheeters (Confederate surgeon's saddle) you note is a great example of a Kilgore. The Kilgores are made of four piece tree construction and are generally different from a Mac in the shape of the pommel and length of the bars. Kilgore's pommels are more knobby, less pointed and,.....the entire seats are usually covered with decorative leather (the pommels and seats often have padded material under the leather making them more knowbby). Their trees also have shorter bars extending out in front and back of the cantle and pommel than do Macs. Macs have longer bars for its military application. The bars and the pommels are the best ways to ID a Kilgore.
Keep in mind this is an entirely different saddle than a Somerset which uses an English tree (no bars!) but with a slight higher pommel and/or cantle. English saddles were usually very flat and with simple leather treatments while Somersets had more height or conture to the pommels and cantle and,.....usually alot more decorative embellishments, seat treatments, etc. This is NOT a "hard & fast" rule!!
The saddle at the bottom of the three on Gloria's home page web site is commonnly called a Spring Seat or a Kentucky Spring seat. They use an English tree so are not Kilgore's (or Somersets ...that is....usually but not always). The spring was achieved by use of web material or various metals applied to the tree seat to give it a spring effect (hence the name). In general, a spring seat saddle pre dates the war while the Kentucky Spring seat was a pattern made popular after the war. This saddle has a "quilted and stitiched-down" seat embellishment.

The sad and confusing part to all of this is that these saddle names sometimes all run together and are very difficult to differentiate. I have some 30 or more 19th century saddle catalogs in my library. There is alot of consistency to them that allows one to be able to identify saddles but they also some real zingers. Having said that, .....saddles are "almost" always identified by their trees then whatever embelllishments were added. Keep in mind the names attached to these saddles were designed as "sales-tools" to attract attention and differentiate them from other common saddles. So the names and their descriptions varied greatly. Still, most of the time - a saddle is first noted by its tree.....Somerset, Kilgore, Spring seat, Shackleford, etc. then by its embellishments.
Read my article on my web site for photos of the trees and more examples of the type saddles.

http://confederatesaddles.com/cswp/?p=242

I hope this helps rather than confuses. Best,

Ken R Knopp

[The Egyptian Homeguard]

Re: Just an observation

Ken, So what's the take on the saddle in my photo album? How would you describe it? Plantation? It shares a similar pommel to the one on you webpage... and at one time Doug told me he thought it was a "shoddy" (my word his was more harsh) recover of a nice period saddle. I don't know... Thanks, Z

[Ken Knopp]

Re: Just an observation

ZAck, send me a photo or link to it again.....I could not connect to it. Sorry Ken

[The Egyptian Homeguard]

Re: Just an observation

Ken, I fixed to original link and sent it to you too... Zack

[Outrider]

Re: Just an observation

On a related note in this photo the black man on the far left appears to be riding a Kilgore saddle. Also note the civilian double bridle with the reins of the curb bit tied around the mule's neck. Another interesting note to me is that for the third time in two days I have seen period images of what appear to me at least showing "strawberry" roan horses. I remember being told early on that they shouldn't be used in reenacting....ummm...not so much.

click on the image for a closer look

[IMG][IMG][/IMG][/IMG]

[TexCavly]

Re: Just an observation

I like that picture a lot Patrick. Here it is in a bigger size, I'm pretty sure it's not a kilgore though http://www.shorpy.com/node/4239?size=_original
and here's another roan for ya' http://www.shorpy.com/node/9388?size=_original

[Outrider]

Re: Just an observation

Thanks John for that bigger image. Now that I see it clearer I think it may be an English saddle afterall. I couldnt decide between the two at first. Unless its something else entirely but it sure looks like it to me.

Thanks!

[The Egyptian Homeguard]

Re: Just an observation

John, thanks for the link to the Henry Page image, I have a digital copy, but it was cropped... I've never seen the version with the fellow hazing the horse for the ears to be up! Very cool. I have seen at least 4 pictures of roans and one pretty sure palomino...Plus it's fact Grant rode off to war from Springfield Ill on a "cream colored" horse named Kangaroo. I'm not saying they were common,(colored horses or Kangaroos) but not unheard of... leaves me wondering what we really know about horse color doesn't it... Z

Remember we shoot for generic troopers not the exception... otherwise I would have a pair of jaguar pants...