For you viewing pleasure...

[Tom Craig]

Re: For you viewing pleasure...

Larry,

It may have been a breach of protocol, but it certainly happened, at least according to the photographic evidence. There are several photos that I have seen over the years with black men (presumably officer's servants) on officers horses. Likewise, there are more than a couple pictures of men who appear not to be officers on officer horses. It could be that the officer was showing off his horse but didn't want to take the time to pose himself, could be that the photographer caught an EM taking an officer's hrose to water etc, and thought it looked cool, or it could even be an EM putting on airs by getting on an officer's horse while he wasn't around to notice. It's impossible to guess the real scenario without documentation, but it certainly happened.

Take care,
Tom Craig
1st Maine Cavalry

[rbruno]

Re: For you viewing pleasure...

Maybe look at it from why we don't think he is an officer? If all the equipment seems to point to an officer, why is he not an officer? Is it lack of visiable rank, shoulder boards, etc. Is it that he is carring a carbine? Do we have specific documentation that federal officers carried carbines. I think there are a few examples of CS officers having a carbine.
Just a thought.

[Old-South]

Re: For you viewing pleasure...

What strikes me as humorous in this thread is this fellow in the image represents a great deal of what a modern farb wears and the gear he uses save the carbine. A MSJ, shabraque, pommel holsters, hat brass, etc! GREAT photo! He must have been a character in his day. He probably raided his C/O's tent and horse and streaked to town to get his image struck before anyone found out! I would have loved to have met the guy!

No historically accurate information represented in this comment. Only personal opinion from a slightly different perspective.

You may resume your regularly scheduled discussion..................

[The Egyptian Homeguard]

Re: For you viewing pleasure...

Rob
There is at least one carbine that can be documented to being carried by an officer in an Illinois cavalry company.... At Memorial Hall in Rockford IL there is a carbine id'ed as... "1859 Sharps carbine #33160 used by Captain John Sargent of Company M [8th, Illinois Cavalry]" Maybe the source is wrong and the Cat is an officer and maybe not. Still a cool early war mounted picture...

Z

[volcav]

Re: For you viewing pleasure...

It could be another example of research proving that what we didn't think happened really did, like civilian model saddles issued to Union troops. One of the many things I've learned on this forum is that so far there have been no absolutes. As much as we might like to think about a scenario of sneaking off on an officers horse back when military discipline could be very harsh to include flogging folks for disciplinary infractions, it very well could be that this guy is actually an enlisted man who was issued a complete set of Mexican War equipment. Either that or maybe he's a junior officer who's not wearing rank. I hope it works out that we can get more information on the soldier in the picture. His demeanor in the picture doesn't look like a that of a jokester to me. He looks like he's ready to go kick butt in style.

[Tom Craig]

Re: For you viewing pleasure...

Gents,

There is an example of an officer carrying a carbine from the 1st Maine history as well. The exact details escape me at the moment, but an officer (either LT or Capt) named Myrick, who is in fact related to the Dave Myrick in the modern 1st ME, was supposed to carry one. Officers carrying carbines may have happened more often, but if so, I've seen no documentation to support it, and scads of pictures of officers without carbines. After all, in CW armies, it was the duty of the officer to direct the combat of the men, not engage in it, as least as far as long rang operations were concerned. Sabre fighting was of course a different story; but an officer should have little need of their own carbine.

A couple of you have posited that the man could be a junior officer without rank. Possible, but it doesn't seem likely that early in the war. Federals, at least in the east, shucked a lot of rank as the war progressed, and it's easy to even find NCO's who are wearing only trousers stripes, or 1st Sgts with diamonds and no stripes. Officers this early in the war are pretty rare that I know of without rank on somewhere. To be an early was officer with no rank AND a carbine would make him a rare bird indeed! That said, there are no absolutes in the study of history.

Take care,
Tom Craig
1st Maine Cavalry

[Butternuts and Bluecoats]

Re: For you viewing pleasure...

Great picture quite a treat!
Best Regards,
Chris Driscoll
Private, M.I.B

[Mike Ventura]

Re: For you viewing pleasure...

Let's not discount the old "staged photo" theory. This could be the mounted version of the "seated subject with the giant D-guard knife and two pistols tucked in a waist band." We know that most of these photos were staged where the photographer happened to set up his gear. Just sayin' - Could a account for carbine or sabers on the wrong side, etc.

[The Egyptian Homeguard]

Re: For you viewing pleasure...

Mike very true about staged photos... I have another Illinois cavalry image (snas) the horse in full regulation dress... trimmed Hardee hat the works... Z

[rbruno]

Re: For you viewing pleasure...

It is a great photo with a lot of interesting details for us to examine. Thanks for posting it.

[rkg]

Re: For you viewing pleasure...

Zack, did you ever get the I'd of the trooper in this picture?

[The Egyptian Homeguard]

Re: For you viewing pleasure...

The guy who got me this copy move to Japan about 5/6 years ago... I have been trying to get in contact since before this thread was started with no luck... So, if anyone knows Todd Stoudt formerly of Southern Illinois now in Japan... BTW: Along the lines of officers carrying rifles, General John Buford also owned a Henry repeater question is did he carry it?

[Micah Trent]

Re: For you viewing pleasure...

BTW: Along the lines of officers carrying rifles, General John Buford also owned a Henry repeater question is did he carry it?

Having handled that Henry repeater myself, and I know some of you all had the chance as well at Perryville last year, that question is talk of discussion there. According to his ancestor that loaned the repeater: Yes he did. If so, when and where? I know myself, I still haven't found any evidence, but at the same time still cannot mark out that he didn't. A mystery it shall remain....

[Mark Choate]

Re: For you viewing pleasure...

I will certainly agree with you, Micah that getting to hold Buford's Henry was a pinnacle moment, for certain. Do you know if it is still at the Perryville museum or has it gone back to the owner?

regards,
Mark

[Micah Trent]

Re: For you viewing pleasure...

Mark, unfortunately it has gone back to its original owner, but what an awesome piece of history to hold it was!!!