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Gwynn & Campbell, Cosmopolitan, Union Carbines

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  • Gwynn & Campbell, Cosmopolitan, Union Carbines

    I didn't want to hi-jack the saddle thread so thought I'd start another one on the carbine in the picture of the Illinois trooper. The Union Carbine, Gwynn & Campbell, and the Cosmopolitan Carbines are the same carbine being described with different names. My sources on the subject are in Texas and I'm in Iraq so I'm working off memory here.

    It was a breechloading carbine in .52 caliber with no forearm piece and used a paper or liner cartridge. They were produced in Ohio by Gynn & Campbell company. There were at least two but I think three different models with no major differences between them just improvements made along the way. Illinois, and Kentucky both issued some of them. My G-G-Grandfather was Yerby Newton Orange with the 12th Ky Volunteer Cavalry U.S. and the 12th was issued some Qwynn & Campbells and about 1,000 Henry's. It's been a couple years since I read the books I have on the subject and I don't remember how many Gynn & Campbells were issued to the 12th.

    When Grierson was planning his raid he had to find arms for his men and he armed some them with the Cosmopolitan. Also when Morgan made his Ohio raid the Gwynn & Campbell company armed quite a few civillians and home guard types with this weapon to help capture him.

    It's an interesting weapon and I don't think anyone makes a repro. I do know that Dixie Gunworks used to have some originals in various condition but my company internet blocks most weapons related sites now and I can't get to Dixie's site to see if they still have any or not.

    The gun was said to have a rainbow trajectory and the biggest complaints about it were gas blowback from the breech and no forearm piece which meant holding a hot barrel if things got busy and stayed that way for any length of time.
    Jerry Orange
    Horse sweat and powder smoke; two of my favorite smells.

  • #2
    Re: Gwynn & Campbell, Cosmopolitan, Union Carbines

    Hi Jerry,

    You are right that they were produced by the same manufacturers, Gwynn and Campbell, but the Cosmo was actually the predecessor of the G & C "Grapevine" carbine.
    Some nice photos and info can be found at this link:



    Mark
    J. Mark Choate
    7th TN. Cavalry, Co. D.

    "Let history dictate our impressions.......not the other way around!"

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: Gwynn & Campbell, Cosmopolitan, Union Carbines

      Mark,
      Thanks to the company internet filters I can't get to the link. Refresh my memory. What was the difference between the Cosmopolitan and the Grapevine. They were same basic design. The Kentucky troops were issued the earlier model. There were also several civillian variations in limited quantities.
      Jerry Orange
      Horse sweat and powder smoke; two of my favorite smells.

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: Gwynn & Campbell, Cosmopolitan, Union Carbines

        Well... by the 3rd qtr. of 1862 the qtrmstr stores of the 6th Ill cav. alone had 339 G & C, but only 75 sharps carbines... but by the 4st qrt. of 1863 only 52 Cosmopolitan carbines and 498 Sharps... Very few would have made Grierson's raid... Only the 5th, 6th and possibly the 16th in Illinois recieved these, all the others were issued other types of carbines... If I remember correct the production run was something like only 1,200 - 1,600 guns...
        [B][FONT="Book Antiqua"][SIZE="4"][I]Zack Ziarnek[/I][/SIZE][/FONT][/B]
        [email]ill6thcav@yahoo.com[/email]

        Authentic Campaigner since 1998... Go Hard or Go Home!

        "Look back at our struggle for Freedom, Trace our present day's strength to its source, And you'll find that this country's pathway to glory, Is strewn with the bones of the horse." Anonymous

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: Gwynn & Campbell, Cosmopolitan, Union Carbines

          Jerry, there was precious little difference in the two as I understand it. I seem to remember that just some operational improvements learned from the Cosmo field usage.

          Mark
          J. Mark Choate
          7th TN. Cavalry, Co. D.

          "Let history dictate our impressions.......not the other way around!"

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: Gwynn & Campbell, Cosmopolitan, Union Carbines

            The Flayderman's Guide will show some differences, quickly, and there was a slim hardcover book done on these not too long ago, search Amazon if you'd care to delve deeper.
            Some years ago I had a chance to buy a real minty Gwyn & Campbell, and out of respect for the Illinois cavalrymen that carried them, got some bullets, powder and headed to a local range. I loaded loose ball and powder, but also made up some paper Sharps like cartridges. After about ten shots I started loosing hair on the left arm. I rolled down my sleeve on that arm, and got two small powder burns on the flannel arm. Actually at fifty yards it hit consistantly without too much effort (at a 100 yard bull), but the leakage was un-nerving.
            S.Sullivan

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            • #7
              Re: Gwynn & Campbell, Cosmopolitan, Union Carbines

              S. Sullivan,
              I have the book you're referring to at home but it'll be July before I'm able to see it again. I'm just working off memory right now. I think the Grapevine version was called that because of the shape of the trigger guard/loading lever. The book I have at home gives all the numbers of who bought how many and how many and what version Grierson bought for his raid. Doesn't sound like it was much fun to shoot the thing. Do you still have it?
              Jerry Orange
              Horse sweat and powder smoke; two of my favorite smells.

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: Gwynn & Campbell, Cosmopolitan, Union Carbines

                Hallo!

                Pictures would help, but Ii am cut off...

                Anyways, a little background...

                The Cosmopolitan rifle/carbine had been invented by Henry Gross of Hamilton, Ohio in 1859, and was produced by the Cosmopolitan Arms Company of Hamilton, which was run by Edward Gwyn and Abner Campbell.

                It would appear that Cosmopolitan produced a small number of prototypes and then an inital batch of production arms. In December fo 1861 the Ordnance Department placed an order for 1140 Cosmopolitan carbines believed going to Governor Yates for Illinois.
                Gywn and Campbell then formed "Gwyn & Campbell" in late 1862, after they received a patent for a simplified breech mechanism improving upon Gross' patent in October.

                There are several variations.

                In brief and to over-generalize... the early G & C's (Type I's) mimicked the Cosmopoitan, most noticeably its long round faced hammer and 900 yard long range rear sight. The last of the TYpe I's had a short-range 600 yard rear sight, anda slightly different butt plate.

                Most of the G & C's found tend to be the TYpe II's, with the 600 yard short range rear sight, a flat hammer with beveled edges, longer sling rod, lock screws on the lock side, and a slightly simplifed trigger guard/lever. Final versions had some minor tweaks such as a simplified lever retainer or catch, and flatter profiled butt plate.

                When I was a younger lad, there, there was a time when no one wanted Cosmo's or G & C's for some reason, and when the popped up, they were "cheap." Hahahahaahahaaaaaaaaa.

                Curt
                Curt Schmidt
                In gleichem Schritt und Tritt, Curt Schmidt

                -Hard and sharp as flint...secret, and self-contained, and solitary as an oyster.
                -Haplogroup R1b M343 (Subclade R1b1a2 M269)
                -Pointless Folksy Wisdom Mess, Oblio Lodge #1
                -Vastly Ignorant
                -Often incorrect, technically, historically, factually.

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                • #9
                  Re: Gwynn & Campbell, Cosmopolitan, Union Carbines

                  Steve, awesome you have one! Scarry it leaks that much! I found a couple for sale online one with about 80% bluing and mint bore ONLY $3600! Ouch! Thanks for the information guys! Z
                  [B][FONT="Book Antiqua"][SIZE="4"][I]Zack Ziarnek[/I][/SIZE][/FONT][/B]
                  [email]ill6thcav@yahoo.com[/email]

                  Authentic Campaigner since 1998... Go Hard or Go Home!

                  "Look back at our struggle for Freedom, Trace our present day's strength to its source, And you'll find that this country's pathway to glory, Is strewn with the bones of the horse." Anonymous

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: Gwynn & Campbell, Cosmopolitan, Union Carbines

                    Old thread, but thought I'd weigh in with fresh insight. I purchased an unissued late model G&C at the summer Marietta, Georgia show. Price was REALLY good. Had the usual poor storage issues but the bore was shiny and the action tight. Sealing projection on the breech block is perfect. I'm still working up loads using nitrated paper, the .515 SPG-lubed slug that works well in my Maynard and Smith (I'd call the G&C a .50, not a .52 calibe), and am experimenting balancing FFFg powder charges with Cream of Wheat filler. The cap flash enters the cartridge's side and, thus, I can use a card wad under the powder to which I can glue the cartridge's paper tail tabs. So far it's sure fire and, surprisingly, doesn't appreciably leak gas (!) Shoots a reasonable group way high at 50 yards. Have yet to try it at 100. It's not only a hoot to shoot but of a number of carbines I shoot, it alone rivals a Maynard for ease of cleaning. As Curt observed, I avoided the G&C for decades. Now it bids to be my favorite casual shooter.
                    David Fox

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                    • #11
                      Re: Gwynn & Campbell, Cosmopolitan, Union Carbines

                      I missed this thread originally ...

                      Anyway, for what it's worth, gas blowback wasn't as great an issue as it may have seemed. Poor workmanship was a major complaint that resulted in a fragile weapon that neither the government nor the soldiers liked. Compounding the problem, many of the parts were hand fitted and not interchangeable. An Ordnance Department inspection report in April 1864 of two sample arms - tied to G&Cs third contract - wasn't very flattering. "... barrels are torn in rifling, rough in finish, front sight badly brazed and rear sights rough in workmanship ... breech frames are slaggy (Note: I assume this means impurities in the metal) and rough in finish ... lock plates thin at front and flaws in the material. Poor case hardening ... levers sound but rough in finish." (Thornton to Ramsay, 18 April 1864, RG 156, Letters Sent, NARA). Major A.H. Sealy, 5th Illinois Cavalry, wrote in December 1863 that "The Union Rifle Carbine is liable to get out of repair to [sic] easily for a good arm." William Thompson of the 8th Missouri Cavalry echoed Sealy's remarks in February 1864. "The Union Carbine is light and easy on the men and will do very well for light cavalry, but for hard service it is too liable to get out of repair." Finally, COL John E. Phelps of the 2d Arkansas Cavalry wrote. "Many of the Union Carbines are unserviceable; they are not a good arm. I had an inspection and they are condemned." (All the above letters are to Ramsay, Letters Received, RG 156, NARA).

                      Curt has provided a good overview of the external differences among the various models. Internally, the Gwyn and Campbell 1862 patent breechblock differed significantly from the 1859 Cosmopolitan patent breechblock with fewer parts.

                      - - - Updated - - -
                      Last edited by James Brenner; 10-28-2015, 04:44 PM. Reason: Double posting
                      James Brenner

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