Dismounted cavalry equipment

[SCTiger]

Re: Dismounted cavalry equipment

Gerald,

The point is that there are a lot of impressions out there that don't have all of the equipment they should have. Even my artillery unit doesn't (yet) have the horses. I have seen unmounted artillery accepted at c/p/h events but, not unmounted cavalry. Actually I applaud the cavalry for being that insistive that a horse is required for cavalry. In regards to the Unhorsed artillery I actually poked fun at myself and I am more than willing to take a joke. I offered a suggestion that if he couldn't buy a horse then he may want to rent or time share the horse. Two or three people could pool their resources, (not joking) and share the horse for different events.

It takes more than a "uniform" to make an impression.

Greg Deese
Yada yada yada Cav mess

[John Popolis]

Re: Dismounted cavalry equipment

Clarification please. John, are you looking at portraying a Cavalry unit that is no longer mounted, such as several infantry units in the AoT were, or are you looking at doing a mounted unit dismounted?

Mounted unit dismounted, or perhaps temporarily horseless, as at Nashville. But at this point, the whole idea is kinda moot.

[major]

Re: Dismounted cavalry can be fun

John
I have been doing dismounted cavalry for years and I have always had a good time and have never been harassed by those of mine or other units that are mounted.
A horse makes the impression much better but I, like you am just not in a position to be able to care for and afford one, so I do the best I can. One other point is that most reenactments around here (Western New York), where I do most of my reenacting will not allow horses. This is there loss but they are the event organizers and we have to conform to their rules.
There is the 1st Ohio unit that I have fallen in with and most or all of them are dismounted. They are located in central and eastern Ohio. I wish I had an e-mail or phone number for you but maybe someone else on the board can jump in and provide it. If you want to contact me direct you can e-mail me at t.schultz5@verizon.net.
Terry

Text was edited to delete references to an event that does not promote the concept or goals of the AC Forum regarding furthering the concept of authenticy and authenticity-based activities. Curt-Heinrich Schmidt, MOD.

[CJSchumacher]

Re: Dismounted cavalry can be fun

Terry,

I'm not sure how this in any way promotes authentic cavalry. Lets try to help people understand that above all...do an impression to the best of your ability.

When talking of cavalry...this means having the ultimate goal of being mounted and with a well-done impression. (materially and mentally) To a mounted cavalryman...the horse is everything and the center of your world.

Everything else is an excuse.

Thanks.

[RJSamp]

Re: Dismounted cavalry equipment

Coley, Enough slander of my dead dismounted cavalry GGG Uncle. Here are the facts:
1. 24th NY Cavalry. 12" bootees, Smith Carbines, Shell Jackets, Mounted Trowsers, 1861 Light Cavalry Sabers (from AMES).

2. Fought at the battle of the Crater, Petersburg, VA. Dismounted, Horseless, with Carbines. They were the third wave in the INFANTRY assault, their Provisional Brigade included another Horseless Cavalry regiment and two cannon/limber/horse less Heavy Artillery units. No long rifles in the cavalry.

3. My relative, Charles W Converse, was a cavalry bugler. Shot at the 'assault' of the Crater by a minie ball, while dismounted and horseless (the 24th NY Cavalry may have gotten horses LATER in the war, but did not have them in 1863 nor the first 7 months of 1864). He died at City James Hospital on January 24, 1865 (coincidentally my birthday plus 90 years).

Those are the facts.

Here are some more facts about dismounted cavalry.

1. Most ACW cavalry fighting was DISMOUNTED.

2. The horses were left behind and out of sight, lest they be killed by artillery fire. As in over yonder (behind a ridge or treeline).

3. The scale of American Civil War battle reenactments is terrifically compressed. We are fighting over a few hundred yards of terrain at best instead of tens of Miles. In the big picture of things at this scale where we are fighting for the benefit of spectators you wouldn't see the cavalry dismounting.

And here's your one million dollar question Codey, Lester, Tod, Et Al.

Gettysburg Pennsylvania.
July 1st 1863
Herr's Ridge

How is it that an entire CSA Corps of the Army of Northern Virginia could come stumbling along down a dry road in broad daylight and fail to notice that there was Army of the Potomac Cavalry Division ahead of them? They thought they had run into militia. Infantry. Rifles not carbines.

And then the DISMOUNTED, Horseless (they were way over yonder back two Two Go-Sees and a mosey to the right) cavalry of Gamble's Brigade started stacking them up. with carbine fire.

How would you portray this battle Coley? Ride up and dismount 400 yards away from the Infantry? Didn't happen that way. Ride up in the night befre, camp out and walk the led horses out two miles....now we're talking. If my reenacting battle field is a whopping quarter mile by quarter mile (pretty big in these parts) is it not conceivable that the horses were down yonder?

Later on when you want to fake the mounted charge against Lane's brigade and force them to form 'square' at nearly a mile away you can do that for us.....of course that's a half mile past the horse trailers and in the next county at an American Civil War reenactment.


We had 180 mounted troopers at Morgan's Raid, we dismounted and fought in a fairly tight skirmish line (two pace interval at one time). That's about the best it's going to get.....

But it's awfully tough to portray a cavalry regiment in action at a Civil War battlefield with 14 rifles.....and you won't accept the real answer that they dismounted a LONG ways away from the reenacting battlefield..... and we can't simulate the effects of a 3" rifle shell on a horse at 1,400 yards.....

Many cavalry troopers fought HORSE LESS as well.

Battery Forgeless artillery, horseless artillery, mule pulled wagonless infantry,
bugle clue less commanders...this is Theater Coley, a Reenactment. In your mind it's possible to watch Tolstoy's War and Peace in a THEATRE and come out with a better understanding of what it was like to live and die in that era....even with a minor scale battle of Borodino.

RJ Samp

RJ Samp

[major]

Re: Dismounted cavalry can be fun

Chris
We all strive for the best impression we can do. Some do it better than others and some are limited to what they can achieve by money and circumstances. IMHO a well done dismounted impression is better than a poorly done mounted one. I do the best I can within my means and for most that is enough. I just can’t afford the horse, trailer and all the upkeep that goes along with it. The pards in my cavalry unit are a great bunch of guys and I would really miss this if I left to do infantry or some other branch.
Terry

[GBaylor]

Re: Dismounted cavalry equipment

Here, here, Chris!

I agree. The horse is the Alpha and Omega of the cavalryman's being. The cavalryman, doesn't eat, drink, or sleep until the horse is tended to first. One other point I'd like to make, that of horsemanship. As Chris pointed out in a previous post, it isn't merely enough to be correctly accoutered to be a good cavalryman, but knowing how to ride well is also essential. I suggest you read "Congdon's Compendium", written by the commander of the 12th Pennsylvania Cavalry on what was expected of a cavalryman.

It has always been my desire to attempt to duplicate as closely as possible the experiences of the common soldier of the "Late War". That means, in regard to cavalry, to have the best reporduction uniform, equipment, weapons, tack, and horse. Most importantly though, is to live like the common trooper, eat out of your haversack, use your saddle as a pillow, and your saddle blanket as sleeping blanket.

John Sweeney

[CJSchumacher]

Re: Dismounted cavalry equipment

Terry,

I understand what you are saying...believe me...we've all been with units where friendships have meant a lot. Also, the means to keep, shoe, trailer...let alone buy a horse are the biggest obstacle. I've been fortunate over the years to have my father on that end.

My point is only that (even for those bad mounted types) you will never truly understand, appreciate, and hopefully educate the life of a cavalryman without the honor and responsibility of taking care of a horse.

Most that post on this forum understand this and feel the same. We don't "do the dance." Its about trying to capture some semblance of the experience.

Sweeney nailed it when he said use the saddle for a pillow and the saddle blanket as a sleeping blanket. How can a cavalryman without a horse possibly get this experience? You just will never know what its like to pick up a horses feet and scrape crap out of them, curry mud and crap off of them after they've taken a roll on the picket line, have sore legs from constantly banging into each other while riding in ranks, hear their satisfactory whinney after you've woken up and watered them before anything else that day...

I am in no way coming down on any dismounted types, but it is these things that cause the divide between mounted and dismounted. Unfortunately, you just can't understand unless you experience this and again, the horse should be the center of the equation.

[GeraldTodd]

Re: Dismounted cavalry equipment

Welp, I guess the bottom line is, where the original question was concerned, the dismounted cavalryman is equipped no differently than the mounted cavalryman, save horse and horse equipments.

I think he should do as Lester often suggests: dismounted mounted infantry. Get a top-notch infantry kit, slap on some spurs, and you're set to go!

[Coley Adair]

Re: Dismounted cavalry equipment

RJ,
You think like a farb, you act like a farb and you defend an over represented impression like a farb. Cavalry means horses, I'm looking at a bookshelf full of books that tell about cavalry using horses. You are guilty of researching to justify your impression rather than researching to develop your impression. Would you like for me to cite the thousands and thousands of instances when cavalry used horses? I took a horse to Port Gibson and placed him two miles into the march the night before so I could replicate what was done, so yes, I would march two miles overnight if that was what they did. To quote one my eastern buddies, "god forbid we let history get in the way of a good time." I'll make a deal with you, if you leave out your ancestor, I won't drag my 46 Confederate ancestors into it
Terry,
I don't know you and this is not a personel slam, bit I'll pass on something my father told me long ago. The white stuff on top of chicken shit, thats chicken shit too. I pulled your first post because it was reported, and I agreed with them, by several folks who said it was "farby". By that I mean you are promoting farby behavior.
If both of you gentlemen would look at the top of the page you will see that it says" Authentic Campaigner", not this good enough or well it's better than. There is a better hobby out there, this is my invitation to both of you, Come to Picketts Mill. I'll supply you both with mounts and give you a better understanding of "dismounted fighting." If you don't go, you don't know.

[major]

Re: Dismounted cavalry equipment

Coley
That is an extremely generous offer and one I would love to take you up on but I will have just finished my vacation time by going to the N-SSA Nationals the weekend before and will have to work that weekend. Also it has been 35 years since I owned a horse and I am bound to be a little rusty especially trying to do mounted drill on a horse I just met. But I thank you for the offer.
Terry

[Coley Adair]

Re: Dismounted cavalry equipment

Terry,
It is an open invitation, there will be other events. I reread my post and if it came off gruff towards you, I apoligize. I realized that we have never met and you might not know how to take me. I look forward to a time when we can discuss this in person. I stand behind what I said and will until research dictates otherwise. Good luck at the Nationals.

[Pip63]

Re: Dismounted cavalry equipment

I am glad this discussion is taking place. I have read all the post and I am going to have to say that a cavalrymen without a horse is not exactly authentic. I have been reenacting for 7 years and of that 7, 5 of those years was spent in the farbest dismounted cav unit here in Mississippi. I know from experience what it is like to have the dismounted cav mentality. "Well since we are dismounted it's o.k. not to have horses, we don't need them". After years of hearing this I began to wonder why we were called cavalry if we didn't need horses. Shouldn't we be infantry instead? Well, I guess what I am trying to say is, that a hobby isn't worth doing if your not going to do it all the way. As I started to progress I came to realize this. I would have loved to stay as an authentic dismounted cavalrymen, but I knew that in the end i would be lacking one thing............. a horse. Being a 20 year old college student I knew this wasn't going to happen, so I went to doing something I knew I could do authentically; Infantry. Please excuse my blabbering, I can get off on a tantrum sometimes, but my advice to Mr. Popolis is to do what you know you can do authentically.

Phillip Lasseter
32 Miss Infantry

[Tom Craig]

Re: Dismounted cavalry equipment

Gents,
One thing that we are starting to do better in this hobby is to include the "background" of war. Stuff like the QM department, wagons, and the like. I think that is an excellent advance in the hobby, and really helps to give more of the whole picture of the period. As part of that I would like to see at some point is an unhorsed trooper. By that I mean the poor Jonah who's horse has played out, and so must march on foot behind his comrades. While not trying to advocate for dismounted cavalry, this would be one venue where it would be appropriate. Of course it would mean the guy doing that impression would have to play keep up with his mounted comrades.

Again, not trying to advocate for dismounted cavalry, but there is one aspect that I have been curious about research wise. In the various journals and diarys from 1st Massachusettes Cavalry there are several references to ad hoc outfits of dismounted men being formed to collect them until they were remounted. In the majority of books on cavalry there is little reference to what really happened to a man once he had lost his horse.

Take care,
Tom Craig

[lesterschumacher]

Re: Dismounted cavalry equipment

"Stand To Horse".......He's not a regular----but he's smart" This is a tribute to the soldierly bearing of the classic photo of the federal cavalryman as he "stood to horse",taken a month after the Battle of Antietam, October, 1862.

The war was only in its second year,but his drill is quite according to army regulations--hand to bridle, six inches from the bit. the steady glance as he peers from beneath his hat into the sunlight tells its own story. Days and nights in the saddle without food or sleep, sometimes riding along the 60 mile picket-line in front of the Army of the Potomac, sometimes faced by sudden encounters with the Southern raiders, have all taught him the needed confidence in himself, his horse, and his equipment.

Cavalrymen fought equally well on foot and on horseback (Federal and Confederate). They, however, arrived mounted. Often, Cavalry who could not get remounted after losing their horse were assigned in an engagement fighting in support of the infantry or fighting as infantry.

Good cavalry cannot be made in a month, or even in a year. John buford estimated two years.

Contemporary writings,letters,reports,manuals all describe by both enlisted and officer,Federal and Confederate, what a cavalryman is. .....Himself, his Horse, and his Equipment.

Since I don't have the technology to scan and load "The Cavalryman", I ask the community to re-search for the photo( Based on the information provided- it has been published in many CW photographic volumes) and load it to this thread.

Best Regards To All.......Lester (The Elder)

Lester Schumacher