Dismounted cavalry equipment

[Linda_Trent]

Re: Dismounted cavalry equipment

I have seen unmounted artillery accepted at c/p/h events but, not unmounted cavalry.

Actually, this thread brings up another point, what is historically documented to the particular time, location, and company/regiment being portrayed?

Take, for example, the Struggle for Statehood event (hardcore, full immersion event). If a mounted cavalry unit applied to attend, they'd be asked to leave their horses at home.

According to the ORs General Jenkins and his men were coming out of winter quarters and they still didn't have their mounts which were on forage in North Carolina. So having horses would be farby at this specific event which depicts April 1-3, 1863. Jenkins and his men didn't get their mounts back for another month. Course many of Jenkins' men were also barefoot, ragged, and starving at this time as well, (documented by one of his own men, and also by Rutherford Hayes who encountered Jenkins' men shortly after their raid on Point Pleasant.), which is one reason that he attempted the raid on a heavily stocked Union post. Heaven forbid! Dismounted, barefoot, ragged and starving! :mouth_clo

Now the civilians will have period-type horses, cattle, and chickens, and a pig (the latter probably not an heirloom variety, but it was hard enough to just find a pig!), so it's not that we don't want, or can't have horses. Just that it would be incorrect for the time, place and regiment being portrayed. :regular_s

I'm not defending the dismounted cavalry, but I am saying that one needs to research, and there can be occasions, like SFS, where a cavalry can be temporarily (at least in the early spring) dismounted. Heck, I'd have never guessed that a cavalry would make a daring raid upon a Union post unmounted, but they did :tounge_sm

There are several links to Jenkins' raid and such from the Struggle for Statehood homepage at

http://struggleforstatehood.homestead.com/index.html

Just my two cents worth :wink_smil

Linda

[Texian]

Re: Dismounted cavalry equipment

I personaly would rather see a nice kit on a "cavalryman without a horse" than another well mounted, yellow trimmed polyester jacketed, east german surplus booted cowboy.
Mr Adair and others would still be a good impression if they didn't bring a horse, and would add a lot to any event.

Two things...1) If I make the effort to put together a good kit, choose events wisely, and put faith into event coordinators that upon arrival my weekend of fun will not be corrupted by farbisms, both physical and cognitive, then "no" I don't want to see a cavalryman without a house, good kit or not, when his best excuse is simply portraying an over-represented portion of the war that in total is an exception not the rule. This board is about the rule. If he has a good cavalry kit then he is on his way to the rule, but without the horse he will never arrive. 2) I have no doubt in the quality of impressions of many on this board nor do I doubt their ability to contribute positively to any civil war event. However, it is my opinion that this line of reasoning has the cart before the horse. We don't talk about reenacting infantry without a long arm (unless you've got a shovel in Missouri or other such place), artillery without their big guns, signal corp without flags, surgeons without saws (the list could go on), what would be the point. Portraying an artilleryman without a big gun is an infantryman waiting for a musket, portraying a surgeon without his saw is once again one too many officers, and portraying a cavalryman without a horse, well, no matter how great his kit is, his mind, motion, and spirit will not surely follow because they don't know how in the first place.
Two more cents,
---Ed

[GBaylor]

Re: Dismounted cavalry equipment

Linda,

I think you're missing the point. As I've posted previously, there are instances where cavalrymen were without horses, but to soley base one's impression as a "dismounted cavalryman/dismounted mounted infantryman" is just plain farb. The intention of the folks on this board is to promote the highest quality cavalry in our area of the hobby. If someone "must" play dismounted cavalry, it wont be at events that I attend nor I suspect any of the campaigner types I "ride" with. Like Coley told me last night, "for every account you show me where cavalry were without their horses, I can show you a thousand where they had them".

Most Sincerely,
John Sweeney

[AzTrooper]

Re: Dismounted cavalry equipment

A dismounted trooper would not look any different than a mounted trooper would when he was dismounted, reason being for every four troopers, three would dismount and link their mounts together and the fourth would remain mounted and would then be a horsehandler, he would then take the mounts to the rear while the dismounted troopers enguaged the enemy. I do both mounted and dismounted depending on the event.We have a event here in Arizona that requires no health certificates or coggins papers so I refuse to bring My horse and risk exposing him to harmfull equine diseases. I have noticed that at least here, the folks running events often have no idea what the function of cavalry is, and unfortuneately it is the case with a lot of the troopers. To do a dismounted impression right and accurately is not that difficult but it is imperative that You read and understand cavalry tactics, because as a dismounted trooper, you need to remember that your fourth man (you would have already counted off in fours)has removed the mounts to the rear while the now dismounted men would form a skirmish line or threaten the enemys infantry flank while your infantry confronts them. I know that this is a oversimplification of the job that the cavalry performed but it is a area that a person doing a dismounted impression can be both accurate and effective . As was said before there needs to be enough of you "doing it right" to pull this off and in my limited experience it helps if You can work with the mounted units and if possible work with them after they have dismounted. When I attend a event dismounted, I dont think of myself as a trooper without a mount, rather I am a trooper that has dismounted for a fight with my mount being held by a horsehandler. Just dont get caught up into fighting like infantry, your job if different as a trooper. Read up on mounted tactics and if possible find a unit that understands and practices dismounted tactics and listen and learn all You can.
A good dismounted impression can be done well and correctly, but You will need to read and understand cavalry tactics and commands, find others with a desire to do a correct dismounted impression and work together at it.It can be done right.
Respectfully, John Rogers

[hireddutchcutthroat]

Re: Dismounted cavalry equipment

When I started in this hobby in 1989 the unit I joined was a dismounted cav unit. At the time I thought "wow this is great, all the cool cav doodads without the bother of a horse." After a few months being dismounted really started to grate on me. I couldnt do ANYTHING that I was reading about. My blanket, food, canteen etc, was on my horse...that didnt exist. I wanted to do be a campaigner well before I new what a campaigner was. I also found the impression very limiting as to which events I could do in part because I was cav, and my cap was covered in a very specific units hat brass. It was no mystery at this point that the best option from here on out was a generic infantry impression. Now some of my pards are trying to get me to do CS cav with them, and I have a whole new respect for the intense amout of work that goes into taking care of a horse. It is a lot of work not just with the animal, but there is a lot of nuances with the personal impressions that very different than an infantryman. So I geuss Ive gone full circle, from doing farby dismounted US cav to authentic mounted CS cav.


I can say with all earnesty;the nicest thing about being an infantryman is that I dont need to get up at 3 am to feed my knapsack.

[AzTrooper]

Re: Dismounted cavalry equipment

I just reread the previous posts in this thread and I have to say that I missed many good points that I have never thought about.To truly experience even remotely the day to day life of a trooper,you would have to know what it is like to get up early and take care of your mount before seeing to yourself. Waking up stiff and sore and bending over to pick out their feet,feeding them and grooming them and cleaning up after them is crucial if You want to, as closely as possible portray a trooper. At the end of the day in the saddle and caring for your horse and then using your saddle as a pillow and maybe using the blanket for a added measure of warmth is a major part of the life of a trooper. I guess I was guilty of referring to doing a dismounted impression ( and I am sorry to use labels) at a more mainstream type event... as opposed to experiencing it in its entirety as many chose to do, not in front of a crowd of spectators.... but for the genuine experience. Now after rereading many of the posts here I can see where both sides are coming from. Living where I do in Arizona, the types of events here differ so much from the events in other parts of the country and finances keep Me from being able to travel out of state for events. It is My sincere hope to move to PA. in the future and after doing so I would like very much to attend some different types of events. I do have my own horse and I do know what it is like to care for him and feed him, in fact he comes first every day, it is part of owning a horse, but I have never really got the chance to experience a immersion event and one day I would sincerely like to. I have had the oppertunity so live off My saddle out of choice at a few events but there were not many of us doing it, and it was a great experience.
In closing my comments all I can see that there is defineately a couple of different mindsets here and that there is no way that one answer is going to settle this debate.Plain and simple as we all know, people are in this "hobby" for different reasons and everyones opinion of what they consider as fullfilling to them will differ as well. I still stand by what I said in My earlier post that at some events, people who decide to do a good impression of a trooper that has dismounted (after given the order the order to dismount has been given) can do a good job, but from a purely neutral standpoint, it appears to me that its propriority would depend entirely on the type of event that is being attended. I suppose the authenticity standards of the individual event and those attending it would have everything to do with weather a dismounted impression is appropriate or not.
Respectfully, John Rogers

[courier]

Re: Dismounted cavalry equipment

Chris Schumacher,
Sir,could you please be kind enough to site the vol. and year of the "Company of Military Historians", piece on Wilders Brigade.I am quite interested in any material on them,not to mention the usual quality of the scholarly works that appear in that journal.Where could one obtain a copy?
Regards,Richard Harris

[CJSchumacher]

Re: Dismounted cavalry equipment

Chris Schumacher,
Sir,could you please be kind enough to site the vol. and year of the "Company of Military Historians", piece on Wilders Brigade.I am quite interested in any material on them,not to mention the usual quality of the scholarly works that appear in that journal.Where could one obtain a copy?
Regards,Richard Harris

Rich,

Here is the website to find out how to attain membership and copies of the company of military historians:

COMH

The color plate is No. 387: Wilder's Lightning Brigade, (Indiana Volunteer Cavalry)

Its been a while since I have read it and therefore don't remember the volume, but you can inquire through the website for further information. Its a great read complete with first person accounts of how they did things.

[Edit: Later edited with volume number 25, Issue 2 in 1973 graciously provided by the esteemed living historian extraordinaire...Mr. Ryan B. Weddle...thank you, thank you...Suhh.]

All,

I hope this issue is now somewhat more put to bed. Obviously, cavalry means horses and anything else is not "there" no matter how good the impression...sorry, but its the truth.

Two words...SPECIALTY IMPRESSION. Sure, there are rare instances and it happened from time to time, but dismounts are right up there with baloon corps, zouave, medical, vivandiere, etc.

Lets stick to PEC...that's hard enough as it is and neverending no matter what branch of the service!

Chris

[GeraldTodd]

Re: Dismounted cavalry equipment

Actually, this thread brings up another point, what is historically documented to the particular time, location, and company/regiment being portrayed? ...

What is appropriate is what is appropriate, if the situation calls for cavalry without mounts, then the mounts get a weekend off. I'm sure there are a few folks that wouldn't do it because those folks won't get out of the saddle for anything - some refuse to even temporarily dismount and fight on foot - I believe there are few, if any, of that ilk amoung authentic cavalry (there's darn few authentic cavalry as it is!) that is just plain poor attitude.

You're also not talking about some carnival type farb fest but an event of some quality with enforced standards - portraying cavalry that happens to be dismounted in this situation is just part of the job for those that portray cavalry. If the unit being portrayed was known to not have any tentage during the paticular situation - folks would leave their tentage home - no difference.

[RJSamp]

Brinkerhoff Ridge

"What is appropriate is what is appropriate, if the situation calls for cavalry without mounts, then the mounts get a weekend off. "

Classic dismounted cavalry action July 2nd 1863, Battle of Gettysburg. East of town the 10th NY Cavalry rides up a couple of miles (yep, MOUNTED Coley), and dismounts in the woods and bottom of Cress Run. A dismounted squadron is sent up to the top of Brinkerhoff Ridge and they get up on this big plateau and skirmish with the Stonewall Brigade. A whopping 27 carbines are on the skirmish line, that's an 1863 cavalry squadron of two companies.

A 333 rifle Virginia Regiment comes up and sweeps the squadron off the plateay, like brushing crumbs off the dinner table. 2 killed, 6 wounded, no horses lost and the 10th NY Cavalry finally was rallied back at Cress Run. All played out.

A few more cavalry units ride up several miles at the trot, dismount down by the Cress Run, and march up to the ridge......

The morale of the story. This is a 5 mile long by 1 mile+ wide battlefield. The CSA infantry NEVER saw any horses other than artillery or cavalry officers. They didn't see them dismount, they didn't see them remount. The horses were never fired upon, nor did they play a part in the tactical aspects of the skirmish. You do this at a 1 mile by 1 mile battlefield....and you can't even portray the formation of the infantry, let alone the dismounting of the cavalry.

Their is a time and a place for many different aspects of the hobby.......

and horseless dismounted troopers, as Gerry has pointed out, have MANY appropriate times and places to faithfully portray ACW troopers.

How about the Battle of Westport, where over 90% of the soldiers were cavalry, and over 90% of the fighting was dismounted. Again the distances involved are often so great (2+ miles of walking to the front, with large bluffs or hills between you and the enemie's LOS) that there is no need to inaccurately portray the dismounting of horses within rifle range of the enemy. When you need cavalry to be mounted, like McGhee's Charge down the Wornall Road (near the Loose Park Duck Pond) then you mount 40 troopers and engage in a pistol fight (not sabers)....

but the other 10,000 cavalry troopers are dismounted, and the horses are WAY off to the rear, out of LOS.

A farb's a farb......and a progressive or a mainstreamer or a campaigner aren't farb's. I've seen plenty of MOUNTED, superb riding, excellent horsemastership, cavalry, FARBS in my day..... Doesn't take more than 50 pounds of cooking equipment and a fly set out on a company street or a plastic cooler in plain sight to make me wretch.....

Horses are expensive, time consuming, can be dangerous, and can wreck a marriage..... None of us will EVER be authentic. Some will be more than others....way more. But just because someone decides to become a trooper without a horse doesn't make them a farb.... too many documented episodes of cavalry troopers fighting as cavalry, with carbines, dismounted to keep trashin' 'em. Like the 3rd Indiana Cavalry troopers who joined up with the Iron Brigade on July 1st, 1863....

Still waiting to see that dismounted impression because your horse was just DESTROYED under neath you.....think about that one.... 1.5 million horses died in the war (and I dont' think that number includes mules....).....how's your authenticity?

Get past the gear already....

RJ Samp
time to bring my sister's string of overo paints to the next reenactment.....that'll wake 'em up...

Dear Mr. Samp. While your posts concerning the CW bugle reflect your serious interest and research in the subject, some of your posts skate back and forth across the line between the pursuit of authenticty and militant farbism (and I will not mention your postings on other fora that read as critical and condescending of the "authentic campaigner" movement.)

While any "impression," including so-called "specialty" impressions like Zouaves or Sharpshooters, can be done as "authentically" or as "farbily" as any U.S. or C.S. line infantryman- the overall issue with "dismounted troops" is similar to Zouaves and Berdan Sharpshooters.
Meaning, that across the general CW hobby, they tend to be done poorly without much regard for uniform, gear, activities, or even whether they were at a particular battle or not. (And even when "authentically potrayed," event commanders often lack the historical knowledge and experience to use them in their actual, documented, historical roles.)
While there may be exceptions out there, the "state of the art" across the CW Hobby, of "dismounted cavalry," is dismally poor when it comes to uniform, gear, activities, and any semblance or resemblance to historical CW cavalry tactics or the Manual.
My hat is off to any and all who do do it "historically correct" and to "authentic campaigner" standards.

The danger for anyone to espouse a mantra that some people use, of "We cannot be 100% authentic!," borders and crosses the line of Militant Farbism because when everything is possible, nothing is possible.
I have read, and heard, this used as a justification not for the "Journey toward," or the quest to achieve the perhaps 90-some percent that is achievable or doable under some circumstances- but rather the excuse for engaging in a hobby that is perhaps only 10-12-30 percent (based upon one's chosen, and valid for them, Mental Picture).

While that may not be your intent, your wording and expression sends that message.

Please continue to post your fine bugle related posts, but please post your well thought out historical arguments without the seeming Militant Farb type comments.
If that was indeed your intention, please consider this a friendly warning to please post them on other fora where they more closely match their philosphy and standards, and consider what you post on the AC Forum.

Thank you for your cooperation and assistance.

Curt-Heinrich Schmidt

[lesterschumacher]

Re: Dismounted cavalry equipment

RJ......A housekeeping correction to your post. Gerald Todd's familiar name is spelled..... Jerry. Regards Lester

Lester Schumacher (The Elder)

[The Egyptian Homeguard]

Re: Brinkerhoff Ridge

[QUOTE=RJSamp]". Get past the gear already....
time to bring my sister's string of overo paints to the next reenactment.....that'll wake 'em up... [QUOTE=RJSamp]

Geez, I take a small vacation from the CW only to have to re-register fro the AC and find the same discussions going.

RJ it is hard to move past the gear, because this forum is about more than just the gear, it's also about a mind set and for the propper mind set you have to have the proper frame of mind which includes the gear. As for horses, they are a lifestyle choice. It is simple as mounted vs. dismounted you're either cavlry or your infantry. Even the infantry is begining to mount staff on horses. We are raising the bar. The paints and apps have been done, we've all seen it... it's still not funny.

Coley, Good to see you boys at TAG, I'm still wondering where the hell you all came from Sunday...Maybe see you all at the Mill...
Later, ZZ
Zack Ziarnek aka The Egyptian Homeguard