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  • #1

    Pommel Holsters

    A member of the AC forum posted a set of pommel holsters for sale in the WTS folder. Before I had a chance to look at his holsters, I automatically assumed they were the style commonly seen at events and used by mainstreamers. Upon closer inspection, I see that they are an officer's style minus the bear fur flaps and the brass bottoms. I apologized to the seller, but it brought up a lingering question for me... has anyone ever seen any other style of pommel holster other than the bear fur/brass tip officer's models? I've seen the bucket type that goes back to the 18th century, but I personally can't remember seeing another style. Does anyone have any documentation of pommel holsters being used by enlisted men? And if so, what style? Personally, I've never seen any that resembled the type commonly seen today...basically two belt holsters held together with a split strap.

    This is not intended to start a flame thread for the newbies, but rather to discuss a topic with documented evidence.
    Larry Morgan
    Buttermilk Rangers
    Tags: None
  • #2
    Re: Pommel Holsters



    Larry,
    Here is a set that are supposed 'Pre Civil War' in the description, though no provenance is known. It is of the basic style existing 100 + years prior to the Civil War, just without the bear flap and nose caps. So this shows there is some precedence for no brass nose caps....how common this style would have been would require some digging and photo/recorded documentation to be sought.
    Last edited by ohpkirk; 07-26-2011, 09:35 AM.
    Cody Mobley

    Texas Ground Hornets
    Texas State Troops

    [HOUSTON] TRI-WEEKLY TELEGRAPH, October 28, 1863,

    Wanted.

    All ladies in Houston and surrounding counties who have cloth on hand, which they can spare, are requested to donate it to the ladies of Crockett for the purpose of making petticoats for the Minute Men of this county, who have "backed out" of the service. We think the petticoat more suitable for them in these times.

    Comment

    • #3
      Re: Pommel Holsters

      Excellent photograph, Cody. I've seen similar styles that are supposedly ID'd to the 18th century, but the lid configuration on these are really interesting. I have seen plenty of photographic evidence for pommel holsters in general officers, but has anyone seen any for officers below the rank of full Colonel?
      Larry Morgan
      Buttermilk Rangers

      Comment

      • #4
        Re: Pommel Holsters

        Larry, I remember seeing Gen Logan's... I don't believe they had the bear skin flaps, but I seem to remember the brass caps... I could be wrong though... I'll try to see if Mark Whitlock at the Illinois State Military Museum has images of them... Z
        [B][FONT="Book Antiqua"][SIZE="4"][I]Zack Ziarnek[/I][/SIZE][/FONT][/B]
        [email]ill6thcav@yahoo.com[/email]

        Authentic Campaigner since 1998... Go Hard or Go Home!

        "Look back at our struggle for Freedom, Trace our present day's strength to its source, And you'll find that this country's pathway to glory, Is strewn with the bones of the horse." Anonymous

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        • #5
          Re: Pommel Holsters

          Larry,

          I've been told by a very knowledgeable saddler that the earlier (18th and early 19th century) holsters omitted the metal caps save for the fanciest of pieces. The common, everyday holster(he stressed calling them holsters and not buckets) was of a very generic pattern across the board without metal caps on the tubes and with some sort of detacheable cover. The saddle I had copied did in fact employ bearskin(and originally belonged to a Maj. Gen. during the War of 1812) coverings on the holsters but cloth or leather covers would have been more common. Please remember though, this is in regards to single shot horse pistols and not revolvers... I'm not sure of the possible differences there.

          Cody,

          Those holsters look like something from the Crimean War... are they? Very nice and they look serviceable. I like the repair to the tube tip on the left holster!
          Dios, libertad y Tejas,
          Scott McMahon
          Pyramid #593
          Grand Lodge of Texas A.F.&A.M.

          "It was not unusual, on the march from the Rio Grande, to behold the most decided evidences of terror and apprehension among the Mexican inhabitants, and more particularly whenever they caught sight of the Texas rangers..."

          John S. Jenkins- History of the War Between the United States and Mexico

          Comment

          • #6
            Re: Pommel Holsters

            What prompted me to start this thread were the pair offered for sale on here. I've been told that Doug Kidd made them based on the enlisted pattern that came with a Grimsley. Wasn't the Grimsley models for only one pistol? http://s23.photobucket.com/albums/b3...rmody/Charlie/

            I'm not sure if the link to the pic of the holsters will work or not. I'm not criticizing the holsters offered for sale. Just really curious. This is a topic that really hasn't been looked at scholarly very much.
            Larry Morgan
            Buttermilk Rangers

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            • #7
              Re: Pommel Holsters

              Larry,

              Maybe these photos can give you some ideas. Pommel holster are one of those areas in which little has apparently been written or published. I have never studied pommel holsters and know very little about them but have handled and photographed a good many. So, here are some in a somewhat chronological order....

              The 1841 Ordnance Manual has a description of pommel holsters. These may have been somewhat common during the C.W due to their popularity and economical simplicity. See artifact photo.

              The 1850 Ordnance Manual which incorporated the 1847 Grimsely equipments employed a different pommel holster. One using a holster on one side and a shoe pouch on the other. I don’t have any photos of this model. Sorry

              * In both cases, detailed descriptions and dimensions can be found in the respective ordnance manuals.

              *Keep in mind early holsters (18th and 19th centuries) were made for single shot pistols including issue military patterns. Later versions for colts pistols then all the rest. Excepting issue patterns many likely would have been tailor made for the pistol they employed- this would have been particularly true for officers.

              One can find a lot of photos of the variable type the Brits used during the Crimean in various books and on web sites. I attach one of Capt Drysdale.
              Another found on the saddle used by Capt Morgan of the 17th Lancers in the Charge of the Light Brigade at Balaclava is very similar to the ones in the photo Cody posted.

              There is another pair of holsters (or s. bags) attached to the English saddle given as a gift by British admirers to our own T.J. “Stonewall” Jackson in February of 1863. Photo enclosed.

              It is just my observations but by the time the war was very far underway many variations existed made to the whim and fancy of the owner (Southern militia, Confederate officers and even some enlistedmen) as imagination and his pocket book could endure. It is doubtful very many Federal enlistedmen had pommel holsters but there can be no doubt that Federal officers certainly used them- again as the preferred.

              Here is a recent link to a nice AC thread on the subject of pommel holsters with a lot of photos I posted of Dragoon and war time examples..........

              Authentic Campaigner
              http://www.authentic-campaigner.com/forum/showthread.php?28303-Pommel-Holsters......&highlight=pommel+holsters


              I have more photos but again, I can offer but little research info about them. Hope this helps.

              Ken R Knopp
              Attached Files

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              • #8
                Re: Pommel Holsters

                I'll try and break out Dorsey and McPheeters and see what they've got in there. Speaking of that, does anyone have any criticisms of that particular book on military saddles?

                From what I remember in speaking with Stuart Lilie he said that most of the early holsters he'd looked at were almost identical in dimensions and when you look at the pistols they held, they're almost identical in measurments as well!
                Dios, libertad y Tejas,
                Scott McMahon
                Pyramid #593
                Grand Lodge of Texas A.F.&A.M.

                "It was not unusual, on the march from the Rio Grande, to behold the most decided evidences of terror and apprehension among the Mexican inhabitants, and more particularly whenever they caught sight of the Texas rangers..."

                John S. Jenkins- History of the War Between the United States and Mexico

                Comment

                • #9
                  Re: Pommel Holsters

                  Mr. Knopp don't you have a picture on your site of a man in California riding a mule where on the saddle is a Mochilla and on the pommel is a holster? Whew, oddly worded Question but best I could come up with.
                  John Clinch ~ The Texas Waddi of the "Far Flung Mess"

                  "Fighting the Texans is like walking into a den of wildcats"- Union private
                  "When a Texan fancies he'll take his chances, chances will be taken..."

                  Comment

                  • #10
                    Re: Pommel Holsters

                    Like this one? They appear to be pommel bags of some sort.
                    http://confederatesaddles.com/cswp/?...page=3&pid=591
                    Andrew Verdon

                    7th Tennessee Cavalry Company D

                    Tennessee Plowboy #1 of the "Far Flung Mess"

                    Comment

                    • #11
                      Re: Pommel Holsters

                      I've got the Dorsey/McPheeters book, but I can't comment on the authenticity of it. I've heard conflicting reports. I've got a copy of Steffens here somewhere as well. I'm pretty sure it was from there that I first read where the MAW type pommel holsters only held one pistol, which makes sense since only one was issued. So far, in none of the photos I've seen, do any of the pommel holsters resemble those you commonly see used by mainstream enlisted men at events today. Of course, the shortage of pistols in the Army of Tennessee would negate their useage anyway, in my opinion.

                      Scott or Cody, what is your opinion on them in the Trans-Mississippi?
                      Larry Morgan
                      Buttermilk Rangers

                      Comment

                      • #12
                        Re: Pommel Holsters

                        Originally posted by Forrestcavalryman View Post
                        Like this one? They appear to be pommel bags of some sort.
                        http://confederatesaddles.com/cswp/?...page=3&pid=591
                        Nope not that one, this one.
                        19th Century Civilian & Commercial Saddlery
                        http://confederatesaddles.com/cswp/?page_id=792&nggpage=3&pid=592
                        ←Back to Photo Gallery                                                  …
                        John Clinch ~ The Texas Waddi of the "Far Flung Mess"

                        "Fighting the Texans is like walking into a den of wildcats"- Union private
                        "When a Texan fancies he'll take his chances, chances will be taken..."

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                        • #13
                          Re: Pommel Holsters

                          Both of those are excellent pictures. I particularly like the second one with what appears to be bearskin covers on the saddle pockets built into the mochilla. The pommel holster almost appears to be a holster and belt wrapped around the horn, but I can't tell. Does anyone have any way to blow these up so we can get a better view?
                          Larry Morgan
                          Buttermilk Rangers

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                          • #14
                            Re: Pommel Holsters

                            Decided to bring this back up. Since we large issues of "pairs holsters" to the 2nd Mississippi Cavalry, I'm leaning towards the idea that these are pommel holsters for single shot pistols. It's my (somewhat limited understanding) that pre war Dragoons used pommel holsters for their single shot pistols.

                            Will MacDonald

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                            • #15
                              Re: Pommel Holsters

                              I came across this a few days ago and thought it would be pertinent to this thread.

                              The Federal regiments that mustered at Camp Dick Robinson and other rendezvous in Kentucky in the fall of 1861, including the 1st Kentucky Cavalry, 4th and 12th Kentucky Infantry regiments, and 1st and 2nd Tennessee Infantry regiments, were armed with a variety of weapons. At first, the only longarms available were "home guard muskets" (probably converted flintlocks), and the 1st Kentucky Cavalry was armed with flintlock "horse" pistols (Tarrant, pp. 15, 26-27, 29, 53). But first-class weapons were soon issued, the 1st Kentucky Cavalry receiving Army Sharp’s rifles with saber bayonets, Colt Navy model revolvers, and sabers. The 4th Kentucky Infantry was first armed with smoothbore muskets, but the two flank companies, and later the entire regiment, were armed with Enfields (Union Regiments of Kentucky, p. 303). A report of December 1861 shows the two East Tennessee regiments still armed with muskets (OR I, 7, p. 484).

                              It just seemed natural to me that the "flintlock horse pistols" would require pommel holsters as horse pistols were carried on the horse as opposed to belt pistols, or pocket pistols, carried on belts or pockets.
                              Last edited by volcav; 01-15-2012, 09:58 PM. Reason: for clarity
                              Jerry Orange
                              Horse sweat and powder smoke; two of my favorite smells.

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