Pommel Holsters

[The Egyptian Homeguard]

Re: Pommel Holsters

Holy moley, don't you just wish you could find an id'ed one! Or atleast know what make and model they were!!!!!

[Curt Schmidt]

Re: Pommel Holsters

Hallo!

Odz-n-Enz..

The 1834 "A System of Tactics" in the equipments inventory says:

"Holsters. (The upper part called the body, the lower portion the pipe. The right holster ought to contain a horse shoe, nails, currycomb, and brush, &c., an dought to be six inches wide...)"

The 1834 and 1839 "Regulations for the Government of the Ordnance Departmant" stated:

"Holsters, pair, with hair, seal skin or patent leather covers, carrying 10 rounds of ammunition."

Foro the enlistedmen, that wold make a single holster on the near of left side, and a ultility bag or pouch on the off or right side. Later ordnance publications talk about a pair of holster bodies for two pistols.

There seems to have been a number of variations, those per the regulations and those from several contractors. Such as those with toe plugs or brass end caps. Some added five or six tin tubes on the upper face of the body for paper cartridges. Some times the specified patent leather covers were more economically "jacked and varnished."

The 1841 manual did not call for bearskin. When the Grimsley patent saddle was adopted in 1847, bearskin was again specified. In 1850 bearskin was dropped. Some attribute this to a shortage of black bears.

General Order No. 31 in June 1851 describes the officer issue pommel hoslters for the Grimsley pattern with "... the pipes to have plain brass tips, extending up two inches and a half,...". Enlisted men, no brass caps.

The rise of percussion revolvers in the 1850's saw regulation and experimental (such as for the Campbell patent in 1855 trying to deal with pommel holsers bouncing off) ones, starting out symettrical as were the pistol ones, butlater switching to an asymetrical design molded to fit the intended revolver. Sets for pairs or matched pistols or revovlers were common, more unusual pairs of revolver and pistol. Or, a revolver or pistol with a shoulder stock. One surviving set is for a M1855 Pistol and a Colt 3rd Model Dragoon circa 1856.

The adoption of the Colt M1851 navy in 1855, and later the M1860 Army pretty much doomed the pommel holster in favor of belt holsters As McClellan recommended in 1856 based on the "Russian system" of always carrying the pistol on the belt. (IMHO, more sense than leaving one's pistol on the saddle somewhere back with the horse handler...) Some CW officers seemed to have liked to continue the older tradiiton of pommel holsters.

Grimsley pattern dragoon saddle with M1841 holsters:



"M1850" holsters with variant blue wool and yellow trip covers:



Possibly a n 1850's Grimsley made set for Colt Dragoons (with an M1960 Army posed):



Curt

[The Egyptian Homeguard]

Re: Pommel Holsters

Curt, thanks for the information, good stuff! You sure that's a Ringgold pattern saddle? It looks a lot like a Grimsley to me... Z

[Curt Schmidt]

Re: Pommel Holsters

Hallo!

Thanks for the catch, I appreciate it.

I was going by the photo tag (Rattenbury) too quickly. The rounded pommel and cantle and the padding pattern should have caught my eye.

Curt

[Mark Choate]

Re: Pommel Holsters

Curt,

That is a wonderful photo and thank you for posting it.

I can understand Zack's question on whether this is one of Samuel Ringgold's Dragoon saddles versus one created by Thornton Grimsley. They are quite similar with the Ringgold predating the Grimsley. The spec drawing of the Ringgold shows a design that featured the high pommel/cantle but with the tips of said pommel/cantle bearing more of a squared off shape (check Randy Steffen's book on U.S. Military Saddles). But, it is my understanding is that some Ringers were created with the rounded tips as shown here. Also, the tip of the pommel did dip down a bit more with the Ringer than the Grimsley which seems to be evident here. (Ken please correct me here if needed).

Surviving examples of Ringgolds are like hens teeth. I know there is a specimen in the museum at West Point. Curt, can you tell us if that is where this photo came from?

Either way, this is a treat for the eyes and I appreciate it.

Thanks again,
Mark

[Wild Rover]

Re: Pommel Holsters

I have these at my house right now....

Thoughts?

[volcav]

Re: Pommel Holsters

I don't see a hole in the center. How do they fit on the pommel?

[Curt Schmidt]

Re: Pommel Holsters

Hallo!

I had it referenced, and just pulled it up, and posted it. It is from the Don Spauding Collection, and a William Mann's photograph used by Richard Rattenbury. It is ID's as a Ringgold.

Looking at it, as pointed out, I do believe it is Grimsley due to the pointed pommel/cantle and the pattern to the padding. I am thinking that the saddle in the picture is pitched up toward the rear on the stand and is not level?

I can't find my copy of Steffen, but here is his page link. IMHO, Steffen is very, very good, but not always perfect (like his making the 1833 dragoon saddle a flat English style).

http://books.google.com/books?id=4WgsMDHdV1wC&pg=PA33&lpg=PA33&dq=Ringgold+saddles&source=bl&ots=SmWwXr88yK&sig=ghTUm-0pgTilqxecCeBeuM3vDx0&hl=en&sa=X&ei=Ur0UT4XBMobf0QHQremiAw&ved=0CIYBEOgBMAg#v=onepage&q=Ringgold%20saddles&f=false

I am admittedly weak on "pre War tack" so I rely heavily on Steffen. Sigh.

Curt

[Mark Choate]

Re: Pommel Holsters

Thanks Curt!

I really enjoyed the photos!

regards,
Mark

[Wild Rover]

Re: Pommel Holsters

From the wear marks they seems to slide under the front...I don't know much about these I admit, but they are for revolvers, as they do not have the single tubes for horse pistol cartidges, but rather for pistol packs...

They are in great shape, and interested in feed back.

[Mississippian]

Re: Pommel Holsters

Ok, found a small note about a pommel holster using federal trooper. This comes from Margie Bearss book about the Meridian Expedition, and here she is quoting a regimental history of the 1st MS Cav during a raid on a federal wagon train:

"....[Lewis Perkins] pursued a fleeing Federal trooper to the edge of the woods, when the latter suddenly wheeled and began shooting at him with one of the army pistols drawn from the holster on the pommel of his saddle. Perkins reined up, drew his own Navy-six and returned the fire til but one ball remained in the cylinder. Then while the Federal continued to fire, Perkins very deliberately took careful aim, knowing it was his last and only chance; and, as he fired, his foeman threw up his arm and fell to the ground exclaiming, "You have kilt me sir!""

Will MacDonald