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**Mike Ventura** · 11-21-2011, 10:38 PM

Re: Ordnance Issues to 4th & 5th Bttns TN Cav & 2nd TN Cav.

Cruppers? And I'm with Rob Bruno - what are "gun boots?""

**Forrestcavalryman** · 11-21-2011, 10:51 PM

Re: Ordnance Issues to 4th & 5th Bttns TN Cav & 2nd TN Cav.

I've been searching the internet for day and have yet to find anything! I still think that they may be a carbine bucket. Or something to that effect.

**Ken Knopp** · 11-22-2011, 02:00 AM

Re: Ordnance Issues to 4th & 5th Bttns TN Cav & 2nd TN Cav.

Since I have seen this subject come up repeatedly on several posts I hope I might add a bit of clarity on this subject of carbine boots, etc. although sadly, in the end you will see it is all still a bit fuzzy to me too. Please don’t take this as the final word on this subject. Perhaps, some of you more knowledgeable Federal guys (Tom, Dave, et al) can correct me, add something? I encourage others with better, more detailed information to jump in here......

CARBINE (GUN) BOOTS, BUCKETS, THIMBLES (Holders): The 1840's 1850's era Dragoon issue item used for the purpose of securing the carbine to the saddle was variably called a “carbine strap & boot” or ”carbine bucket & strap”. In general, it was a small leather cylinder that fit over the end of the carbine gun barrel and then attached to the saddle by a long leather strap. The most common detailed description is found in the 1841 Ordnance Manual and again (albeit a bit differently configured and described but essentially the same item) in the 1851 Uniform and Dress of the Army of the United States, (under) Horse Equipments. G.O. No. 31, A.G.O. 1851.
*This was similar to variations I have seen adopted by the British about the same period (See Ospry or other British manuals and regs)

Federal CW: The item most of us are familiar with was called a “carbine thimble” as modified by the M1859 McClellan equipments. The typical CW Federal issue carbine boot or thimble was patterned on these M1859 equipments- which was made as a small, open-ended cylinder shaped piece of leather with attachment strap and buckle. It was designed to buckle to the “D-ring” of the saddle, off-side (right) quarter straps. While mounted, the trooper snapped his carbine to the sling snap hook putting the gun barrel down into the boot to both stabilize the weapon and to provide easy access.

Confederate: Confederate ordnance officers generally had some pre-war army experience or exposure to the patterns employed by the U.S. army. As a nearly identical copy, the Confederate 1863 Ordnance Manual literally describes that found in the 1861 Federal manual. In other words, the carbine thimble of the M1859 equipments.
From the Confederate records...although the language is occasionally ambiguous it is my opinion from what I have read that the most common verbiage used for this very same item and purpose was a “carbine boot” or more often “gun boot”. Its just common sense. References to these carbine or gun boots are quite often found in the surviving records for the Richmond Arsenal, most if not all western arsenals, western contract suppliers and in a multitude of individual requisitions. While apparently very commonly made and issued, sadly, any description of the Confederate “boot” , if it’s official (or un-official) pattern variations differed from the pre-war and/or M1859 Federal patterns, cannot be found.
Having said that, given the autonomous nature of the CS arsenals, individual arsenal commanders discretionary latitude and the large number of contract suppliers it is probably very likely that variations of both were made in some, perhaps very widely varying configurations.
Yea, I know....ambiguous. Sorry, wish I could do better. Maybe others have better information?

* I have an article written on Confederate carbine slings, patterns, hardware, etc. on my web site that includes some of this info and might be of use...

The Confederate Issue Cavalry Carbine Sling

http://confederatesaddles.com/cswp/?p=325

Among the many pieces of infantry, cavalry and artillery accoutrements manufactured by the Confederacy during the war, the evolution of the cavalry carbine sling seems to exemplify the Confederate …

Ken R Knopp

Confederate Saddles & Horse Equipment

https://www.confederatesaddles.com

Confederate saddles and horse equipment

**Mississippian** · 11-22-2011, 07:51 AM

Re: Ordnance Issues to 4th & 5th Bttns TN Cav & 2nd TN Cav.

Ken,

As noted by yourself on another thread, the Memphis (and later Columbus MS) Arsenal made at least two variations of that item, one for carbines and one for shotguns......

Will MacDonald

**rbruno** · 11-22-2011, 09:17 AM

Re: Ordnance Issues to 4th & 5th Bttns TN Cav & 2nd TN Cav.

To All,
This is an iteresting discussion of the "gun boots" or other variants of names. I had a similar discussion with another friend this weekend about these post. I am somewhat familiar with the gun boots from the Dragoons and Mexican War era. My understanding is that the trooper would hook his carbine on the sling, mount his horse, then put the carbine muzzle into the boot, and then unhook the carbine from the snap on the sling. I didn't think the carbine would remained hooked to the man and in the boot at the same time. This is the different from the "carbine thimble" used during the CW era. The muzzle goes in the thimble while the carbine stays hook to the snap/sling. All the people that know the maunals better then I can confirm or correct me on that. That was also what I was wondering about. Has anyone read a description of the boot being used in a manual written at the time of the CW.
Which leads to my next question on the item. Lets say that Ken's interpretation is correct and the the CS term for a "carbine thimble" is a "gun boot" issued in what seems like to me large amounts to these troopers. Would that imply that the CS cav had more breech loading carbines then maybe we imagine or think? I know the "gun boot" from prewar is design to work with a muzzle loader, but my understanding and the reaserch I have done shows that muzzle loaders in the CW were issued with the slings and carried across the troopers back. If the muzzle loader was so common and slung across a troopers back, why would they need the boot? Again, the more we know, the more we don't know.

**ButtermilkRanger** · 11-22-2011, 10:20 AM

Re: Ordnance Issues to 4th & 5th Bttns TN Cav & 2nd TN Cav.

Interesting points, Rob. Someone more knowledgeable than me can comment on the prevelance of breech loaders in the Confederacy (they certainly had them, but in what numbers?) or musketoons vs. carbines (maybe we see too many musketoons and not enough true carbines?). But I will comment on the terminology. Even as a kid myself, the old folks around here invaribly called a saddle mounted rifle scabbard a "gun boot" or "saddle boot". I think that is a vernacular throwback to the 19th Century military terminology.

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