Carbine hooks, with or without link

[rbruno]

I was at the Baltimore gun show yesterday and a friend picked up a great, very clearly stamp, US carbine snap hook for a great price. One question that has come up that I am hoping to get some help. My understanding of the snap hooks is that the ones without a link between the hook and the D roller were pre war and early war. And, the link was added during the war. I have searched on line and used the search link on the AC without any real answers. I talk to a few collectors yesterday (insert comment about using collectors for info) and searched other relic websites (insert another comment about using relic hunters for info) for information and really didn't come up with anything specific.
The US Ordnance manual from 1850 and 1863 state:
Carbine Sling - 56 inches, width 2.5 inches; 1 buckle and 1 tip, (brass). Swivel and D with roller, bright iron, 2.62 inches wide; LINK and hook, iron; gaurd - spring steel.

I came across a site that had a snap hook with a manufacture and a contract date with the US Gov't between '64 and '65 and the hook shown from that company had the link.
My friends has J Shepare (sp?) from MA stamped on the roller.

Does anyone have any documented sources for the production date of the hooks with or without the link? Is this just a contractor variance? This is one of those small details of equipment that I always wondered about. I know the CS has a greater variety, but if the ones without a link have a CS providence even though they are manufactured in the North, that would be interesting too.

[CompanyWag]

Re: Carbine hooks, with or without link

I was wondering about this detail myself as I recently aquired an original sling with a short snap hook w/o the link. No maker's mark is present.

[Ken Knopp]

Re: Carbine hooks, with or without link

Well, this is most certainly a worthy question! I too have often wondered about this but have seen no real evidence other than relic hunter hearsay or "gun-show" speculation. Perhaps Tom Craig or other Feds might have an angle on this?

Ken R Knopp

[fortdonelsonrelics]

Re: Carbine hooks, with or without link

The only time I have seen a carbine snap without the link is in use on the Henry Rifle sleeve.

Look on page 40, Wiley Swords, "historic Henry Rifle". My guess is that they were only used in utilitarian situations like this. Even the post war slings I have seen have the link on the snap.


John Walsh

[fortdonelsonrelics]

Re: Carbine hooks, with or without link

Here is what is quoted, pg40, "Feb 1864, Brig Gen Ramsey ordered from Washington Arsenal 1200 leather holsters for the Henry Rifle for issue to the 1st DC Cavalry, commanded by Col. L.C. Baker"

For those who don't have the book, the swivel snap does not have a link and is clearly riveted to the leather body.

Now the question begs, are these snaps unique to the Washington Arsenal and did the slings from this location only bear these snaps. I'm not sure.

John Walsh

[Tom Craig]

Re: Carbine hooks, with or without link

Rob et al,

Speaking totally off the cuff here, if I recall right, the link is a later war addition. The earliest ones would not have had the link. Again though, I'm speaking off the cuff without source to back that up at present.

A lot of Fed gear evolved over the course of the war. Most of the evolution happened around either saving money, or making things more durable. An example, early war sewn sabre belts made of buff evolved into bridle leather and rivets. As to exactly why they would add the link into the sling, I'm not sure.

Take care,
Tom Craig
1st Maine Cavalry

[rbruno]

Re: Carbine hooks, with or without link

Tom et al,
That was my understanding as well. But the early manual has the link. I have never heard of them being used on Henry Rifles. I guess I never even thought of how a Henry would have been carried on horseback. Not to side track the discussion because we still have not found out for sure when the change was made or if they were both used/made at the same time, but this would be an interesting discussion on different variations to what the gov't would buy even though it didn't meet the regulations. I wonder if not having the link predates the 1850 manual.

[fortdonelsonrelics]

Re: Carbine hooks, with or without link

Here is a pick of the Henry Rifle sleeve with a Carbine Snap without a link.

John Walsh

[David Jarnagin]

Re: Carbine hooks, with or without link

The answer on the difference on the snaps is they were both made concurrently during the Civil War. But there is no evidence that the ones without the link were used during the war. There are so far no photos or dug originals that have shown up to prove the use and until it will remain a question.

T.J. Sheppard was the first inspector to stamp what he inspected and that is why the leather one look like a cartouche but he also stamped buckles and snaps. The snaps that have his name were made after March of 1864.

I hope this helps but they are Northern made.

David Jarnagin
Leather researcher and conservationist

[rbruno]

Re: Carbine hooks, with or without link

David,
So, T. J Sheppard was a US inspector? I wonder why they were made concurrently and yet we don't find any around. Would an inspector stamp an item and yet reject it because it didn't meet his standards or if it didn't meet standards, would it be sent back to the contractor as a reject without the inspector stamp? I guess these might be questions more in general and not to the snap hooks, but might shed some light on the hooks. It seems like if they were in production, inspected, and accepted in to the service, they would have been issued or used in some manner.

[David Jarnagin]

Re: Carbine hooks, with or without link

Yes T.J. Sheppard was an U.S. Ordnance inspector. T.J. gets his stamp after a problem with carbine sling buckles. It has been awhile so I may not remember the maker name correctly. I think the maker was Gaylord and both makers name and T.J. stamped his initials into the back of the buckle. The buckles were not of the best quality this caused a series of letter to figure out who the initials T.J. belonged too. I have seen his stamp on carbine sling parts and pistol boxes.

Your friend should have asked either Fred Gaede or Paul Johnson who were both at the show. These two people know the most about the subject and I am sure their reputation speaks for itself. I had to asked one of them to make sure I had my facts straight. I did not ask about the ones without link if they had inspectors marks them or not. If they do not they could a state contract. There are many more mysteries still not discovered in the archives and answer to these and many other questions.

David Jarnagin

[fortdonelsonrelics]

Re: Carbine hooks, with or without link

To David's point, I've had the T.J. Shepard mark on both the E Gaylord snaps and sling buckles as well as on the OB North marked swivels snaps.

John Walsh

[Ken Knopp]

Re: Carbine hooks, with or without link

John, David, Hey, weren't the OB North "marked" carbine snaps late war? Perhaps real late and sold as surplus? I have one or two now but years ago I used to buy them, TJ marked and, plain ones by the dozens (!) from Dixie Gunworks (and at shows) for $6 each. All originals and all in perfect working order!! From what Dixie told me I always thought they were Bannerman surplus or something.
Yea, I was such a genius entrepreneur back then that I sold them retail to reenactors for $12 for the plain ones and $15 bucks for the marked ones. And, I was ashamed I was taking advantage of folks! Man! Wish I had just a few of them now.

Ken R Knopp

[rbruno]

Re: Carbine hooks, with or without link

David,
I didn't think about a state contract which could have been different then the US manual. Sounds like there are many options, not sure what we could have asked the people you mentioned. Sounds like more vairations.

[fortdonelsonrelics]

Re: Carbine hooks, with or without link

Per "American Military Goods Dealers and Makers", Page 199.

O.B. North, New Haven, Conn. In regards to Carbine Sling swivels, they had contracts for 4,142 in May 1864, & from Nov. 1864 - June 1865 had contracts for 29,000.

John Walsh