20rd Carbine box Typeology

[arkangel33]

He gents I have a carbine box for you. I'm a leather worker and owner of what I would consider a good amount of original leather gear. I have all of the standard reference material culture books. The three Ordnance manuals 41', 50' and the approved in late 61' printed in 62' the Paul D. Johnson book on infantry boxes. Todd's, Steffen's books. I hate the 61' manual being so vague on the matter. If you have read that part then you know what I'm talking about. Im also a member of the Company of military historians and have poured through the current and older issues of the MCH journal. What I have yet to find is a typology for the 20rd carbine boxes. Im talking about the shorter one not that beautiful creation of Nick Duvall. In the three that I own there are certain characteristics that might warrant a type I, II or III. First one is an E.Gaylord one piece construction, Straight stitch holding the latch tab, no rivets on the buckle , 2nd is unmarked, no inspector stamp. two piece body, half moon rivet on the latch tab, no rivet but double row of stitching for the buckles. 3rd is a J. Davy marked/ inspector marked late war with all of the rivets in the usual places and a one piece body. Box three is easy to Date place as CPT Julian MacCalister didn't reach New York to take his post as inspector of Infantry and Cavalry equipments til 64' and him revamping the whole inspection process. Its the first two that are a little harder. As great as Goods dealers and makers it is not as specific on contract dates as I would have liked. Also I have seen a great photo supposedly taken during the 62' valley campaign of a fed Cav trooper wearing one of the short 20rd boxes and holding a Sharps Carbine. I know that's but one photo amongst many taken. I would like to hear from anyone with source material or knowledge of a known specimen to a specific person to try and come up with a timeline for usage. As E.Gaylord was one of the Big 4 pre-war contractors I think pattern 1 is easy to figure out. I as well as any of us can speculate all day long I want to have quantifiable facts. I think we owe it to those that we portray as well as those that follow after us.
Mike Brase

[Ken Knopp]

Re: 20rd Carbine box Typeology

Mike, good presentation and good question! This is outof my league but perhaps others can offer some insight. BTW, I see you own some, can you post some photos? It would be helpful.


Ken R Knopp

[arkangel33]

Re: 20rd Carbine box Typeology

Ken, I will work on getting those Photo's and posting them up. Your book arrived on Tuesday thanks for shipping it so quick
Mike Brase

[David Jarnagin]

Re: 20rd Carbine box Typeology

The replacement for the 1841 rifle/carbine box was not originally going to be the Pattern of 1860 but a war got in the way. The most important information on the 1860 carbine boxes is the size of the holes in the blocks which determine the caliber of round that could carried in the box. For this information you can look at the article in the CMH Journal 40 #1, spring 1988 pages 109-119. The article is titled Identifying Civil War Cavalry Cartridge Boxes, written by Paul D. Johnson.

The changes in pattern can be found using the same time line as in the Cartridge Box book. You may find T.J. Sheppard in cartouches on some boxes and he started inspecting in late 1863 and was the first to mark his work. This is all has to do with some carbine buckles that fell apart.

One and two piece back I think is a contractor variation and not differences in pattern. Gaylord kind of did his own thing at times and it is not just in carbine boxes but many other things as well.
As far as I have seen and know the carbine boxes did have rivets. There may information or original show up without rivets tomorrow. Pistol boxes do show up without rivets.

David Jarnagin
djarnagin@bellsouth.net

[arkangel33]

Re: 20rd Carbine box Typeology

Dave, thanks for the info. I will go through my stack and see if I have that issue. Leave it to Paul Johnson to have figured this stuff out. I have seen both styles with Gaylord the two piece body/ flap and all one piece. I have an original unmarked one piece with half moon stitching and no rivets for the buckles and I was comparing it to my Gaylord. I wish that Paul would have come out with a supplement to his book on Infantry cartridge boxes, I love that book very well done.
Mike Brase

[arkangel33]

Re: 20rd Carbine box Typeology


Ken here are what I believe to be an early war Gaylord pattern and a mid-war box. On the Gaylord you will notice no rivets on the flap or on the now missing buckles. It has a round end on the flap strap which some say is indicative of late war manufacture. I don't buy that as the Ordnance dept. wouldn't bother with something that trivial. The second box has the riveted flap with but also has no rivets holding the now missing buckles. The scallop on the Gaylord lines up exactly with a pattern 1861 .58 Gaylord box a friend has. the body is also 7.2 inches wide which is the same specs as the Infantry .58 box. The second one matches up the same way. it has differences such as the Star punch closing the brass tack holes. The Star punch I have also seen on Paul Johnson's Berdan rifle box.
Mike Brase

[bullseye54]

Re: 20rd Carbine box Typeology

Howdy Gents,
This is a bit off subject, But I shoot a Smith, Maynard and a Sharps carbine and I would like to purchase a cartrige box I can use for all, at least the Maynard and Sharps.. What would you recomend and where can I buy quality made boxs? I only spend my hard earned US dollars for made in USA.... Thanks, Joe Niezelski

[spadegrip]

Re: 20rd Carbine box Typeology

Try Duvall leather in PA. They make a Sharps box with the tin tubes for the cartridges. Won't work for Smith or Maynard-there you only need a box with a wood block with 20 holes drilled to hold the cartridges. Since they are both .50 , one box should work for both.