Interesting saddles

[Mike Ventura]

Re: Interesting saddles

Andrew made a couple of good points - you gotta make sure the leather is as clean as you can get it, but be careful how you do it so that you don't chip or flake the dry leather. And Mark is correct in that most Neetsfoot oil sold today is a compound and may contain synthetics. A good 100% natural oil - Andrew's recommendation of mink oil is perfect - is what you should use. Mink oil also has terrific waterproofing properties. Andrew is also correct that it's best to apply several light coats and let them set, before adding another.

[Jeff Nichols]

Re: Interesting saddles

Pecard is fantastic ...especially for antique leather

[Mark Choate]

Re: Interesting saddles

Both Andrew and Jeff mention great items. I have used the Mink oil some, but swear by the Pecard for originals. It brought an original Somerset, as well as that Kilgore, back to an unbelievable level. The Somerset has a quilted seat and it is just as pliable as the day it was built.

But the most important thing is to do it gradual. It (leather) "was" a living tissue at one time and as such has to be approached in a certain manner.

Just think about your wife or girlfriend applying skin moisturizer to her face every night before she goes to bed............on second thought.....don't think about that.

Mark

[David Jarnagin]

Re: Interesting saddles

Guys slow down a little here and make sure you do it right. The first thing I would suggest is to go to Ken’s site and read the article on Reenactor’s guide to leather care in the 19th century. You will find it under the listing of articles. The reason is in the article tells how and when to oil and this is very important both to original and modern leather.

Oil is the causes of many problems in leather from either the lack of or too much. The breaking point is really low at 29% to 30% total oil content. Over these magic number leathers tinsel strength begins to drop. Too little and the fibers in the leather cannot move back and forth without causing friction. Since this is a forum cavalry this should be very near and dear to your heart or at least for your tack sake.

I do not talk about name brands of oil but here is what you need to know. Any oil with petroleum distillates comes from crude oil. Petroleum distillates (mineral oils) when in contact with tannin in vegetable tanned leather over time turn to solvents. This may not sound bad but solvents are used to de-tan. Strip tannin from the leather fibers and the fibers can begin to rot. Natural oils do not cause this problem. Natural oils such as tallow, lard, neat’s-foot, olive and lanolin, you get the point but make sure they are the pure oils and not a mix with mineral oils added.

Over oiling is what causes thread to rot and it does not matter whether it is natural or mineral. Leather takes up moisture in high humidity conditions and then loses the moisture when the humidity drops. Over oiling causes the leather to stop this breathing effect with moisture and what moisture is trapped is what rots the thread not the oil but because of the oil!! Oiling instructions are in the article!

Oil is not a water proofer but that is purpose of wax such as shoe polish and other like them.

Taking a dry saddle back is really hard and it is a good 6 months project. Cleaning and oiling, again and again in order to get the oil all the way to the inside of the skirting leather. Slow and steady is the only road you should use. Shep Hermann kept repeating over and over a little is good and a lot is bad when it comes to leather.

This is a really hard subject and I do not like to talk to people about the care of leather until you have read the article since it explains the subject better than I can at times.

I have kept post short on purpose but further question you can email me at djarnagin@bellsouth.net

Have a good weekend.
David Jarnagin

[Mark Choate]

Re: Interesting saddles

Well, ladies and gentlemen, there you have it!!

I only wish I had remembered the article on Ken's site.

Thank you very much, David.

Mark

[ButtermilkRanger]

Re: Interesting saddles

The Alleghany Arsenal McClellan screams repop to me as well. Nothing about it seems original. The saddle bags behind the saddle bags (which don't particularly look like the original '59 bags I've seen either) look to me to be German WWII bags. My copy of "Cavalry in World War II" is about 90% Wermacht cavalry and bags of this type seem to be pretty common. They could be British or another nationality, but I'd argue definitely 20th Century.

[Jeff Nichols]

Re: Interesting saddles

Pommel shield, despite its stamping, is shaped like the later production version (post '64)...pommel face doesn't appear as vertical as it should be...looks more like a '64 to me

[Paul L Muller]

Re: Interesting saddles

Great thread guys...really, best one in months. I have Dan 's saddle and am putting it back together to send back to him. He asked me if I have seen this thread and what I used on his saddle. I have used nothing as the leather on the seat is "dead' as far as I can tell, NO flex at all. I HAVE USED EXTRA VIRGIN OLIVE OIL WHEN I REWORKED AN ORIGINAL WESTRN SADDLE and I still ride it today, but that is only on the none load bearing leathers,all rigging and sturrip leathers were replaced. I have seen amish dunk old harness in warm oil to "revive " it and seems to me to only make it very messy and gives dirt something to grab on to.For what it is worth, I agree with Mr. Jarnigan that to much oil teads to rot stitches . Great thread here ,thanks plm

[Ken Knopp]

Re: Interesting saddles

Hello Gents!! Great thread!!

The following are my humble observations....

-The “Texas” Saddle is actually a post war M1903 Packer’s Riding Saddle that has been reworked. According to Dorsey & McPheeters (pg. 132-133). The saddle at auction has been stripped of its leather covering (note the stripes in the rawhide) and re-worked using some of the hardware. However, it is the very same tree.

-As Mike Venture keenly observes the “Allegheny Arsenal” saddle is a reproduction. I note the poorly made and modern tree, hardware, etc. and of course, the lack of age cracking etc in the leather.

-Really like Dan’s wagon saddle. These are difficult to date. Although early ones can be identified the mid to late 19th century versions were made very similar. This one has an early high cantle in the “American” saddle pattern tradition but a late 19th century pommel so probably a later pattern though I would like to handle it. Wagon saddle originated in the late 1700's and remained very common well into the 20th century.

These are just my opinions....I am doing a lot of research right now on commercial/civilian 19th century "riding" saddles. Finding a lot of good info too including ways to identify Spanish, Hope, Texas, Attakapas, California from each other and about their origins. Prior to the war these above patterns were understood and easily identifiable to contemporary Americans however, the CW changed that. The war turned out to be a time of great blending of patterns furthered and exasperated by the post war commercial saddle era. Still, many new patterns emerged from the post war period.
I will try to share some of this info this week.

Ken R Knopp

[IowaYank]

Re: Interesting saddles

Ken, I'm sure we'll run into each other at Chickamauga. You take a look as much as you want!
Dan

[saddlemaker]

Re: Interesting saddles

Thanks for sharing some great pics. I would say the "Hope Style" saddle is post war. The Mac is definitely a repro.

[CJSchumacher]

Re: Interesting saddles

I'm not sure if anyone noticed, but they mention the Allegheny was re-rawhided and refurbished in 1990. The tree, however looks good to my eye. They mention using all of the original hardware and I'd wager that pommel shield is original. The repops made have squared slot corners on those early Allegheny shields. A looong time ago (20+ yrs), my brother rode an identical re-done Allegheny rig.

Those bags are funky and definitely not right, but overall, don't be so quick to judge. Have you seen the 1857 bags on the saddle in the Tojhusmujeet in Copenhagen, Denmark? They're more "early 20th century" looking in design than one might suspect.

Just passing through,
CS

[Tom Craig]

Re: Interesting saddles

I'd have to second Chris' thought on the the Mac. While I am certain that all the leather has been redone on that saddle, and not super well, the shape of the tree looks decent to me. Decent enough that it threw me when looking at it in comparison to the leather work. Perhaps the hardware was salvaged from another saddle, but at least the pieces that I can see look pretty decent as well.

Take care,
Tom Craig
1st Maine Cavalry