Early Hope & Texas saddles....

[Mark Choate]

Re: Early Hope & Texas saddles....

Like intestinal exit locations....we all have one.

What "do" he mean??????????

Seriously, gentlemen, this discussion is solid meat and as Ken has said is "foundational knowledge" and critical to further understanding of the evolution of these saddles we are all so intrigued by. Don't worry about anyones' "boredom"......if they are, then there are other channels on the dial!

Keep it coming.

thanks,

Mark

[rbruno]

Re: Early Hope & Texas saddles....

I too think this is a great discussion. No matter where the lineage ends. The prewar civilian saddle market has been of interest to me because I think I see myself going into the civilian side of reenacting at some point. My one question would be if either of you guys would be willing to post some of the sources. I did a quick google search for some of the saddles and I end up reading other websites information. I would like to read some of the primary research I believe Ken, Casey, and others are reading, but I am not sure even were to begin besides doing another google search. Always looking to add to my library.

[Ken Knopp]

Re: Early Hope & Texas saddles....

Rob, For starters Man Made Mobile is the best single source and very complete though after thirty years it is getting a bit dated as new info comes to light. Not to dis-respect it at all because it is by far the greatest single source of this infor. and will certainly stand the test of time. However, new information does come to light from time to time to refine its story. Beyond that, there really is no "one stop shop". Everything comes in bits and dribbles- pieces of a large mosaic puzzle that we are very slowly constructing but will likely never be fully clear.


I have never been one to hoard information. On the contrary I prefer to share it. Over the years I have collected a large mass of sources, tid bits, quotes, saddle catalogs, horsemanship books, veterinarian and breed books, illustrations, photos of saddles, etc., etc. Moreover, I have been very blessed to be fortunate (divine providence I believe) to come into some large treasure troves of this type info. and photos of saddles from earlier, iconic (in my book) but now deceased historians. When collected, constructed and all considered it starts to paint a rather interesting and somewhat clearer picture.

SOURCES: These can sometimes be purchased rather cheaply on Amazon etc. There are many more but here are a "few" on a wide variety of subjects in our era I highly recommend....

Man Made Mobile. Smithsonian Inst. The early chapters on Spanish/Mexican saddlery are exemplary. The chapter Western Saddles Before the Cowboy by James Hutchins is quintessentially superb! Hutchins is by far the leading historian and pioneer in this field. Time will show no one even comes close to what he has written or contributed.

Dorsey, R. Stephen Dorsey and McPheeters, Kenneth L., “The American Military Saddle, 1775-1945". Collector’s Library, Eugene, Or. 1999. What can I say? Great book by great historians!

Steffan, Randy, United States Military Saddles, University of Okla. Press. The “Father” of our saddle books by a fine Gentleman and historian. Do not discount his books. Like all of us historians we are only as good as our last work and our information is immediately inaccurate almost before the print dries. A fact of life. Still, Steffan was a Pioneer on the order of Daniel Boone, Davy Crockett and no less tenacious in his work or considerable in his contributions.

SADDLES By Beattie. Another wonderful historian whose contributions are sadly underrated and overlooked.

BITS & BRIDLES By Dr. Malm....yet another historian on the same calibre as Beattie

UMO Cayuse Handbook; By the Upper Missouri Outfit. Published by Liberty Graphics, 2005. An obscure but wonderful collection of essays on the fur trade but with a tremendous amount of work on the early Spanish, Half Spanish saddles, bridles, epishimores, and clothing of the early trapper/mountainmen. Some of the information is dated and occasionally inaccurate but on the whole it is an outstanding little privately published book. I highly recommend it. Order it here....

http://www.lg-usa.com/UMO/UMO.html#

Herbert, William Henry, Horses, Mules and Ponies, and How to Keep Them. Orange Judd Co., New York, 1859, Carriages, Pgs 375-401.

Herbert, Henry W., Frank Foresters Horse and Horsemanship of the United States and British Provinces of North America, Vol II, New York 1857.

Price, Byron, B. Fine Art of the West, Abbeville Press, New York, New York, 2004. Good info in the introduction on the history of Spanish to Mexican to American saddles. Another fine historian “still” making contributions!

Horse Equipment of the Civil War Era, By Howard Crouch. An excellent photo book of hundreds of artifacts by my friend and fellow student of cavalry and saddlery. Yet another fine author, historian and relic hunter sadly overlooked in his contributions.

Old Cowboy Saddles and Spurs (two different authors of books with the same names....One by Hutchins and one by Graham.) They have multiple editions mostly on post war western saddlery but there is some good info here.

Lynghaug, Fran (2009). The Official Horse Breeds Standards Book: The Complete Guide to the Standards of all North American Equine Breed Associations. Minneapolis, MN: Voyageur Press,

Randall, Henry S., The Structures and Diseases of the Horse, Practical Rules to Buyers, Breeders, Breakers, Smiths, etc., Orange Judd Co. New York, 1850.

From time to time I will post some "in progress" synopsis' of pre war saddlery for discussion.

I really do appreciate people reviewing, discussing and criticizing my postings and work because honestly, it makes me think from different angles and thus refines the effort.

Ken R Knopp

[rbruno]

Re: Early Hope & Texas saddles....

Ken,
Thanks for the list. That is great. I would like to get some of these titles.

[ButtermilkRanger]

Re: Early Hope & Texas saddles....

Excellent conversation. Feel free to bore away. I, for one, am far from bored on this one.

[wavey1us]

Re: Early Hope & Texas saddles....

Ken,
Great research and thread. I for one would be intrested in seeing some further research on the Attakapas saddle and some sort of artist rendition of the saddle. The Attakapas style saddle was the foundation for the 1830s Dragoon saddle. There are many beliefs of what that early Dragoon saddle looked like and I beleive if we had a baseline of the Attakapas, I thnk we would have a better idea of the foundation of the 1830s Dragoon saddle.
Here is one question for Ken, when did saddlemakers dispense with the iron triangle stirrup hangers near the pommel of the saddle? I have artist drawings that go to the 1850s that show this style of hanging stirrups.

[Ken Knopp]

Re: Early Hope & Texas saddles....

Thank you Bill,

Q: ...when did saddlemakers dispense with the iron triangle stirrup hangers near the pommel of the saddle?
A: I have not taken any time to look into this and offer but a quick "thought" on the subject. Someone please correct me here but my first recollection of the iron "loop" stirrup strap hanger was on the 59 Mac. This pattern was more practical, secure to the tree and serviceable than the triangle which tended to turn. I know the iron loop was not found on the Campbell, Hope or Grimsley and the Jenifer came after the Mac so my inclination would be that while the common triangle was in "common" use (though not pervasive- see the Grimsley) until 1859 when the Mac gave the iron loop widespread exposure and thus it became common therafter. Just my initial and quick thoughts....someone tell me if I am missing something?

Attakapas? My understanding of the "first" M1833 Dragoon is that it was an English tree pattern.....though there is some debate on this subject. See Dorsey and McPheeters book "American Miltiary Saddles". So, the Attakapas (a horned saddle) was not used in its developement. However,.... a "second" M1833 was made. It is common understanding that Grimsely provided some 715 "horned" Spanish saddles (a different M1833 a.k.a. the M1833 Grimsley Dragoon) to the Army in 1833 and more for the next eleven years....Some were used in the Seminole War and on the western frontier.
Dorsey & McPHeeters (and others) suggest that the Attakpas was its foundation. I am not so sure. My research indicates otherwise. I believe those two fine historians mistakenly confuse the Attakapas with the Spanish saddle....Yes, it is true....two officers, Kearny and Mason, recommended the Attakpas for adoption however, there is no evidence their suggestion was taken. Yes, True, Grimsley did provide a saddle in 1833 he said was "an exact model of the much admired Spanish tree" BUT!!....But!...the Attakapas and Grimsley's Spanish saddle are two entirely DIFFERENT trees!!!! The Attakapas is a different look and based upon the Spanish "Jineta" saddle while the Spanish saddle is based upon the "Estradoita/La Brida". These two saddles were developed for different types of riding styles in the Old World (Spain) and remained different in New Spain then in Mexico.
I believe these M1833 Grimsley Spanish trees were similar if not nearly identical to the St. Louis pattern Spanish saddles that Grimsley was selling to the Fur Traders beginning about 1825 (or perhaps a couple of years earlier). I would also note that wide variations of this Spanish tree saddle were made for civilians and commonly found up and down the Mississippi and elsewhere as early as 1820. As was the Attakapas about the same time. In my research I find advertisements where the trees are always differentiated from each other and the Creole and other tree patterns too. Back then, the differences in the trees were understood...not so today....at least until now.
F.Y.I.....Dorsey and McPHeeters go on to describe some detail as to how the military Spanish saddle was dressed out.
Beyond that....we find other military patterns...The M1841 was a brief Hussars (European Hussars) pattern then the M1844 was the Ringold....then M1847 Grimsely etc. etc. No horned saddles until the experiments with the Hope in the 1850's, thereafter, post war patterns.

An artist rendering of the Attakapas is not necessary. There are photos of originals. I have a brief overview of the saddle that I am preparing. Though a "work in progress" I will post it here at some point. However, it needs alot more research and work so I am hesitant to "stick my neck out" and make it public until I can refine it. I do not want to perpetuate erroneous information. Too much of that already floating around.

Thanks to all for the interest.

Ken R Knopp

[Forrestcavalryman]

Re: Early Hope & Texas saddles....

Wow, this is now my new favorite thread! Good stuff.

[wavey1us]

Re: Early Hope & Texas saddles....

Dang It Ken. You made me go back a look at my research. To say the least, there is much confusion on the 1830s Dragoon saddle. I know that those a little beyond the CW theme, but Ken started it. (HA!)

This is what I have researched.

You have Grimsley's "proposal" to the Army Quartermaster Brandt, April 1833

Dear Sir
In obedience to your request of this morning I
herewith enclose you a description of the saddle
on which I proposed to mount the U S Dragoons
ordered to be raised for the defence of our fronteere.
The tree which may be termed the foundation is
constructed of solid timber dressed to suitable thicknesses
from the forks of treese selected for this purpose,
and in shape is a complete moddle of the much
admired spannish saddle, and is covered with raw
hide which is put on them wet, and contracts by
drying so as to confine every part of the tree compactly
together, and renders it so strong that no
horse or mule can when exerting his utmost strength
brake them in any part. No difference is perceivable
to those who are not practical mechanics at the
saddling business between the shape of the saddle
above mentioned and the real spannish saddle accept
that those which I manufacture are longer and
better proportioned for the Horses of the U S than
those constructed in the spannish country would be:
for the simple reason that in the latter case they
are calculated for small horses and mules and are
made very narrow which renders them unsafe and
even useless for the horses in this country unless
they are so low in flesh as not to be in a usable
condition.
The construction of the seete and pad of the
sample which I have made is similar to the common
american saddle though the seete combines advantages
of ease to the rider and affords facilityes for
repaires which the common ammerican saddle does
not possess. A leather cover exactly on the spannish
plan is thrown over the whole saddle which forms
the scorts [skirts] and affords a complete protection
to the under seete which is made of soft leather
and linnen and is stuffed with wool, and it is on
this [i.e., the cover] that the Holsters, and other
apparatus necessary for the accommodation and
convenience of the Dragoon is attached. This cover
or schabbrack as it is called is made of thick heavy
leather and protects the whole body of the saddle
from the wet. The head [horn] and cantle of the
tree passes through this cover and of course holds
it snug in its place. On each side behind the holsters
the stirrup leather passes through it; so that the
rider has from the senter of the seete to the extream
lower edge of the scort a perfect smooth surface of
leather to ride upon. The saddle treese now proposed
to be used vv^as first taken in to the trade to
the mountains by Genl Ashley, and has since been
continued by his successors: Smith Sublette and
Jackson all of whom have tendered and would if I
had deemed it necessary have given certificates of
there great superiority over any other saddle Tree
now in use for constant service.
The greate advantage to be gained by the government
in the adoption of the above mentioned saddle
. . . is; first there durabillity and safety to the
horses backs as they have in many instances been
rode and packed to the mountains and back again
without any pad but simply using a blanket or a
bairskin under them....
I remain as every yours Truly
Thorton Grimsley

Brandt contract backs to Grimsley for the saddle delivery, 27 June 1833, along with the description of the saddle designed that was contracted:
Dear Sir,
You here have a full description of the U.S.
Dragoon Saddle as adopted by L* Col. Kearney and
contracted for by yourself. The tree is composed
of four pieces of timber put together, and in shape
is an exact model of the much admired Spanish
saddle tree. It is covered with untanned hide, which
binds every part of it completely together & forms
the high reputation which the Spanish saddle tree
has for strength and durability. The tree is then
skirted and padded, th« skirt protects the dragoon's
legs from the horse, and the pad for the more
effectual preservation of the horse's back. Two iron
staples with loops in a triangular form is on each
side & receive the stirrup leather. Three iron staples
are put behind the saddle and clenched through the
cantle of the tree for the crupper and coat pad. The
coat pad is of the usual form with two straps &
buckles by which the Dragoon attaches his coat or
any other baggage which the nature of his service
may require. A girth strap 1^4 inches wide is
placed on each side of the tree resting on a small
flap or skirt which is calculated to keep the buckle
and girth from wearing on the lower edge of the
pad. Two leather loops is placed in front of the tree
on each side to receive the breast plate [band] &
two small straps with buckles nearly in the same
place by which the holster pipes are to be confined
to the saddle.
The above I believe to be a complete description
of the saddles agreed for by yourself, and intended
for the U.S. Dragoons, and I have no hesitation in
saying that they are equal if not superior for the
service for which they are intended to any Saddle
now in use in any part of the world. For the information
of the heads of the War Department, I will
at an early date make a sample agreeably to your
request which you can forward to Washington for
their inspection.
I remain very respectfully
Your ob* Servt
(Signed) Thornton Grimsley

So, as you can see there is difference between what Grimsley thinks the Army needs and what the QM has stated the Army needs. From the differences between the two letter, one might think that there was a meeting occurred between Grimsley and Brandt where these "suggestion" were discussed and a agreement was reached. Grimsley agreed to provide 715 saddles to the US Army.
I would like to see a side by side comparison of the "Attakapas" and the Spanish style saddles.
I find it amazing that people are basing the "other" saddle design of the 1830s Dragoon on what is illustrated in the Cavalry Tactics manual. There are several tems that people need to be aware of:

1. Looking at the 1834 Cavalry Tactics manual you will noticed that on the inside of the front cover it is dated 1826. 1826 is when the Committee was convened to discuss Infantry, Artillery and Cavalry Tactics.
2. Between `1826-1828 discussion in Congress continues to this System of Tactics for Militia that included: Infantry, Artillery, and Cavalry.
3. 15 Dec 1828 Senate Bill S19 is introduced for "the printing and binding of sixty thousand copies of the Abstract of Infantry Tactics.
3. 2 Mar 1829: Act providing for the "printing and binding of sixty thousand copies of the Abstract of Infantry Tactics." Included is also the printing and binding of five thousand copies of a system of exercise and instruction of field artillery.
NOTE: Notice that the requirement for the Cavalry portion of the manual has been dropped. This was due: " The cavalry system was not ordered to be printed, owing to some discussion which took place in the Senate in reference to certain manoeuvres; when, to save time, it was proposed to leave out the cavalry for the present."
4. 19 Apr 1834: Bill was introduced for the printing of five thousand copies of the system of cavalry instruction, for the use of the militia. Also included in the bill inclusion to print "two hundred and fifty copies to the Army." Alex Macomb goes on to state that these 250 copies were "now printing".

So given the above facts, do you think that the two months between Apr-Jun that any of these copies of the Cavalry manual would have been available for review, much less give someone enough time to base an equipment design? Given the time it would take to print and bind I would think it would be next to impossible.

Based on the above facts, I would lean more towards the saddle design as agreed between Grimsley and the Army Quartermaster and NOT what is shown in the 1834 Drill manual.

[Ken Knopp]

Re: Early Hope & Texas saddles....

Bill, I am in total agreement with you on the M1833 saddles.....there were two (mis-named? Yes) One is the English version and the other would be the so-called Grimsley Dragoon.

MODS: Please indulge me....this is VERY relevant to our CW era saddles including the pre war Dragoon saddles, the CW Texas and the CW teamsters saddles..if not other areas.

OK, allow me to make my case about the M1833 Grimsley saddle....is it a Spanish or Attakapas saddle? Oh boy, This is gonna be long........(sorry!)

Lets review the quotes.......

Grimsley: “and in shape is a complete moddle of the much admired spannish saddle.....No difference is perceivable to those who are not practical mechanics at the saddling business between the shape of the saddle above mentioned and the real spannish saddle accept that those which I manufacture are longer and better proportioned for the Horses of the U S than
those constructed in the spannish country would be: for the simple reason that in the latter case they
are calculated for small horses and mules and are made very narrow which renders them unsafe and
even useless for the horses in this country unless they are so low in flesh as not to be in a usable
condition.”...
A: No doubt, the tree G. is talking about is the St. Louis pattern Spanish tree made by Grimsley and other makers at the time and NOT the “real” Mexican or Spanish tree - though similar. The big difference being in the length of the bars.


Grimsley: ”The saddle treese now proposed to be used vv^as first taken in to the trade to
the mountains by Genl Ashley, and has since been continued by his successors: Smith Sublette and
Jackson all of whom have tendered and would if I had deemed it necessary have given certificates of there great superiority over any other saddle Tree now in use for constant service.”
A: Again, the tree G. refers to here is the St. Louis pattern Spanish tree taken into the field early in the Fur Trade about 1825 (he later noted) but I think it was likely a few years earlier (1822) and the same tree G. had made ever since.



Maj. J. B . Brant, QUARTERMASTER REPLY: You here have a full description of the U.S.
Dragoon Saddle as adopted by L* Col. Kearney and contracted for by yourself. The tree is composed
of four pieces of timber put together, and in shape is an exact model of the much admired Spanish
saddle tree.”
A: First, I must make particular note of the fact that along the length of the Miss. River south to New Orleans and west into Acadiana the two saddle trees the “Attakapas” and the “Spanish” were well known as two “different” patterns. This is clear. I have period advertisements for N.O. makers that note these two patterns (and others) as available in various styles. The Anglo people of the period understood they were different. The people of New Spain made them different. One for riding and one for ranch (roping, etc.) type work. Look in Man Made Mobile and read the first two chapters. They go into great length about the riding styles that came from Spain. One the Estradoita and the other the Jineta (actually more) and thus, two different saddles were commonly used for riding in these styles. I believe what developed in New Spain were several different patterns of horned saddles used for different purposes. Some of these patterns developed regionally however, all are very difficult to track by origins as to exactly which one became our horned saddles. Thus is the central disagreement today among historians and duly noted in the first two chapters of MMM....Which one became the Mexican Vaquero and thus our horned saddles? Some historians think the “Estradoita” (which originated in northern Spain with kinship to the Great Saddles of northern Europe, ala...armored Knights), some the “Jineta” (originally brought to Spain by the Moors of North Africa) and others the “La Brida” which is a saddle associated to the Estradoita. Confusing? Yes. But if you take the time to carefully read the first two chapters of MMM it will become clearer.

Me? I believe that the Vaquero saddle developed from the Estradoita (likely) or La Brida (not clear and does not matter right now). However, another Spanish/Mexican saddle developed for showy riding (not roping) purposes came from the Jineta which became our Attakapas. I will not go into how I came to this conclusion but there is some very good circumstantial evidence to make the assumption and no less evidence than that offered up by the good historians in MMM.

Second: Now, lets address the Kearney recommendation: according to Man Made Mobile, Kearney and Mason’s recommendation of a saddle, “patterned on that of Mexico. Presenting to the War Dept. Official a specimen horned tree, one which had been made, they said, in “Louisiana’s Attakapas region”,...
Later, as noted above, we find Brant says, “ You here have a full description of the U.S. Dragoon saddle as adopted by Lt. Col Kearney and contracted for by yourself.” However, with our new understanding that these are TWO DIFFERENT PATTERNS from these two references it would be a stretch to assume that what Kearney says earlier and what Grimsley actually manufactured are the very “same” tree. We now know for sure that they are NOT identical trees. In fact, in Kearney’s quote it could be inferred that he offered up an Attakapas BUT we do NOT know which saddle tree was ultimately “adopted by Lt. Col. Kearney” nor “contracted by yourself” (Grimlsey) by June 1833. Not enough information. However, I suggest that what Grimsley offered and likely the one ultimately employed, was in fact the Spanish tree that he was so familiar with and which he notes in his letter. It just makes sense from a manufacturing standpoint.

Third: More evidence.....What was actually contracted for and manufactured?.....Brant’s quote.....”an exact model of the much admired Spanish saddle tree.”. (!!!)
OK, from what we know about the two trees and from the reading of this quote, I think, tells it all.....
CONCLUSION: The tree Brant contracted for can be none other than the Spanish (the very same tree then made by Grimsely.) and NOT the Attakapas.

NOTE: I attach a photo of a very early Spanish saddle tree.


Finally, Lets look at some saddles.....Forget how they are finished....irrelevant! Look in MMM...James Hutchins fine chapter...page 47 (photos below). The saddle tree he notes as the U. S. Army Teamster’s saddle in 1854 is in fact (he is strongly suggesting this)....The Attakapas. If you have a copy of my book, pages 76-77, you will see this very same saddle in a surviving specimen of what I beleive to be a CW era wagon saddle (I attach another photo of an Attakapas too for fun!). For the untrained eye, the Spanish and Attakapas are the same saddle. But,...BUT, they are not! There are subtle differences such as in the shape and length of the tree bars (particularly the front of the bars) and, a much higher and more narrow horn. The Spanish saddle had extensions to the front of the tree bars and a shorter (low profile) horn...later for roping! (Think!... the physics of a 800 pd cow on the end of a rope on either of these two saddles and you get the picture!).
The shape of these two trees were “fairly” well known to the people of the period and "fairly" consistent from the 1820's to 1850's then they began to morph (another subject, another day). By the CW, in the public’s eye, the Texas had replaced the Hope (at least to non-Texans) and replaced the Attakapas. By the end of the CW, the Attakapas (as a separate pattern) faded into oblivion to be no more except in its home region of Louisiana. Even there, by the turn of the century it had lost its identity.

What do ya think?

Ken R Knopp

[Ken Knopp]

Re: Early Hope & Texas saddles....

Ooops! I accidently loaded the wrong photo of an additional Attakapas saddle than I had intended. The one I loaded is fine but here is another and better one. This one is an example of a more Spanish pattern. As you can see there were variations that I beleive were regional to Mexico and of course, evolution was a common thread among all saddlery....but, there is consistency too in the high, slender horn and shape of the front tree bars as opposed to the Spanish saddle with a shorter horn, usually a flat, often wider horn cap and extended tree bars. I have more Attakapas made by both Mexicans and Anglo Americans.

Again, to the unpracticed eye this can be hard to see but if you look at enough of them the mental picture of the pattern sharpens.

Ken R Knopp

[wavey1us]

Re: Early Hope & Texas saddles....

Ken,
Thanks for the info. Looking at the 1830s Spanish Saddle, it seems very similar to the Dick Waters saddle that you have listed on your website, saddle design wise.

[IowaYank]

Re: Early Hope & Texas saddles....

Just taking a look at the Ashworth, it looks very similar to a saddle that I picked up off ebay a couple years ago. It is apparent that at some point the saddle did have a horn on it and it broke off. They fixed it by capping it. Paul Muller and I haven't been able to pin down exactly what type of saddle it is; instead calling it a Mutt! Do you think this is an Ashford that had the horn break off?
Dan

[ButtermilkRanger]

Re: Early Hope & Texas saddles....

Ken,

The final pic you posted is very similar to a saddled ID'd to Antonio Lopez de Santa Anna on exhibit on the Texas Cowboy Hall of Fame in Ft. Worth. I'm extremely interested in the Attakapas, so if you have any more pictures to post, I'd sure like to see them.

[Mark Choate]

Re: Early Hope & Texas saddles....

Dan,

While Ken will clarify this to a greater degree, the reference to "Ashworth" is not the name of a saddle but rather to a very influential collector of original saddles that Ken is acquainted with. I have been fortunate to visit his collection and it is more amazing than words can tell. Seriously, it is beyond imagination! Anyway, that name is not of the saddle but I think Ken was referring to that particular one as an Attakapas that happens to be in this collection.

Gentlemen, as an aside, having seen a "rough draft" of the new work that Ken is putting the finishing touches on, you are all in for such a treat when this "hits the stores." There is nothing else that fills this gap in the manner that Ken does. We are all very fortunate to benefit from his effort, knowledge and arduous work.

thanks,
Mark