CS Saber Belt Question

[roundshot]

Re: CS Saber Belt Question

Canvas sword belts of this type are one reason that Richmond CS tongue and wreath buckles seem to be found in quantity in CS Cavalry camps occupied for any length of time - they ditched them as soon as they could. This is true of the camps around Culpeper and Montpelier VA as well as around Richmond. "Richmond" type plates, of both yellow and red brass, saw service in most theaters. I am aware of several dug around Murfreesboro, TN and one on its original belt attributed to an officer in Forrest's cavalry. I believe these to be way underrepresented in the hobby.

In addition, based upon archaeological findings in ID'd Cavalry camps in Mississippi/Alabama and numerous photos, the cast oval "CS" plates, sometimes called the "Breckinridge," generally saw service on saber belts. But thats a whole 'nother can of worms!

Bob Williams

[Iron Scout]

Re: CS Saber Belt Question

Gents,

Here's a few pics of one of my favorite belts for sale recently. This is the ANV style with the thong adjustment mechanism. The leather strip is missing but you can see both holes. Also note the "bullet" stitch that characterizes the RD belts. This is the first style of belt when the shops were using two brass strap loops/ovals. The second style (1863+) had the rear strap sewn directly to the belt with a teardrop shaped stitch. Hope everyone enjoys.

Neill Rose
PLHA
Love & Wienges

[CJSchumacher]

Re: CS Saber Belt Question

Gents,

Here's a few pics of one of my favorite belts for sale recently. This is the ANV style with the thong adjustment mechanism. The leather strip is missing but you can see both holes. Also note the "bullet" stitch that characterizes the RD belts. This is the first style of belt when the shops were using two brass strap loops/ovals. The second style (1863+) had the rear strap sewn directly to the belt with a teardrop shaped stitch. Hope everyone enjoys.

Neill Rose
PLHA
Love & Wienges

Neill,

Great pictures! I love the bullet stitching at the keeper...also, a well-cast buckle. Also, note the more typical fashion on CS belts of securing the hangers around the belt and stitching vs. on-top of, which is much more typical of U.S. made sword belts. (Both front and rear hanger assemblies with obvious exception given to those already belts mentioned above that are basically copies of Federal belts with changes)

[ferraius]

Re: CS Saber Belt Question

Yankee Bob,
If I was you I would try to find someone who will make you a Georgia frame saber belt out of bridle leather. I understand that there is one in the Gettysburg NPS collection. I would think that they would have been a common belt in all theatres of the war. I don't know who is making decents saber belts these days though, the last one I got from a reputable sutler was made from heavier weight leather than should be used in my opinion. More suited for draught horse halters!

Jon O'Harra
aka Romulus "The Black Rascal"

[hireddutchcutthroat]

Re: CS Saber Belt Question

Yankee Bob,
If I was you I would try to find someone who will make you a Georgia frame saber belt out of bridle leather. I understand that there is one in the Gettysburg NPS collection. I would think that they would have been a common belt in all theatres of the war. I don't know who is making decents saber belts these days though, the last one I got from a reputable sutler was made from heavier weight leather than should be used in my opinion. More suited for draught horse halters!

Jon O'Harra
aka Romulus "The Black Rascal"

Jon Jon

I am leaning more towards the spoon and wreath due to the fact (that according to relic hunters I have spoken to) that they show up quite abit in the west. I also feel they are under represented in the hobby in general.

Blue trimmed CD jacket, Austrian Lorenz, no saber, Hope saddle.....Yea Im doing ANV

Now go strum dat banjer!

[GBaylor]

Re: CS Saber Belt Question

Robert,

You may very well be doing ANV. The 1st Virginia Cavalry (at least one company thereof) were issued Columbus Depot shell jackets w/ blue trim in late 1862. Along with the Lorenz and no saber, you'd fit right in with a sharpshooter company in the ANV cavalry. Note. they called their skirmish companies (those without sabers and revolvers) "sharpshooters".

John Sweeney

[hireddutchcutthroat]

Re: CS Saber Belt Question

Robert,

You may very well be doing ANV. The 1st Virginia Cavalry (at least one company thereof) were issued Columbus Depot shell jackets w/ blue trim in late 1862. Along with the Lorenz and no saber, you'd fit right in with a sharpshooter company in the ANV cavalry. Note. they called their skirmish companies (those without sabers and revolvers) "sharpshooters".

John Sweeney

John

On the old forum sombody posted imformation regarding the 1st VA (Jon Jons unit) having blue trimmed CDs. Do you have this info? Everybody in CA portrays ANV save me. :wink_smil

[GBaylor]

Re: CS Saber Belt Question

Robert,

The information came from Nick Nichols who found it in a private diary in the University of Virginia Collection. He was a member of Company F, 1st Virginia Cavalry. I have the guys's name somewhere in my notes, but Nick made a transcription of it and gave a copy to Dave Born. CD's weren't as uncommon as some might think in this neck of the woods. There's a published set of letters from a "Urjanus (sp) Allen" of the 21st Georgia who describes an issue of what sounds like Columbus Depot jackets in Virginia in October/Noember 1862.

I'm going to trey to get one of the members of my unit who attends UVA to try and locate the diary.

John Sweeney

P.S. Do you know Ed Simms?

[hireddutchcutthroat]

Re: CS Saber Belt Question

Robert,

The information came from Nick Nichols who found it in a private diary in the University of Virginia Collection. He was a member of Company F, 1st Virginia Cavalry. I have the guys's name somewhere in my notes, but Nick made a transcription of it and gave a copy to Dave Born. CD's weren't as uncommon as some might think in this neck of the woods. There's a published set of letters from a "Urjanus (sp) Allen" of the 21st Georgia who describes an issue of what sounds like Columbus Depot jackets in Virginia in October/Noember 1862.

I'm going to trey to get one of the members of my unit who attends UVA to try and locate the diary.

John Sweeney

P.S. Do you know Ed Simms?

Thanks allot John!


"Do you know Ed Simms?" Yep!

[Mike Ventura]

Re: CS Saber Belt Question

Neill,

I too love collector talk! Here's Jim's link and the belt can be found at the bottom of the page. Notice, too, the cloth keeper at the left of the top photo and pristine CS spoon & wreath buckle. Funny thing is, on a non-adjustable belt...what do you need a keeper for??? Hmmm...looks I guess. Just a neat piece of equipment.

http://www.angelfire.com/ma4/j_mayo/csequip/csbelts.html

Chris

Is it my eyes or does the stitching on the fabric belt (middle of three in the photo om Mayo's site) look like it is machine stitched?

[hireddutchcutthroat]

Re: CS Saber Belt Question

Is it my eyes or does the stitching on the fabric belt (middle of three in the photo om Mayo's site) look like it is machine stitched?

Mike

If you are refering to the belt with the snake buckle, it shure does to me.

[CJSchumacher]

Re: CS Saber Belt Question

Mike

If you are refering to the belt with the snake buckle, it shure does to me.

I think he may be right also.

Rob,

One point of clarification...as a couple of us cav guys are as anal as many collectors...the "Hope" saddle is most comonly referred to as a "Texas" saddle or of the "Texas pattern" or "Texas tree."

Have fun and tell Ed I said "Hey!"

Chris

[hireddutchcutthroat]

Re: CS Saber Belt Question

I think he may be right also.

Rob,

One point of clarification...as a couple of us cav guys are as anal as many collectors...the "Hope" saddle is most comonly referred to as a "Texas" saddle or of the "Texas pattern" or "Texas tree."

Have fun and tell Ed I said "Hey!"

Chris

Thank you for the clarification. Jon and Ed are draging this AoT infantryman kicking and screaming into the saddle.

Bob

[Mike Ventura]

Machine stitching

Yeah - the snake buckle belt on Mayo's site (see Chris' link) sure looks machine stitched to me.

Look at the close up of this belt - I believe it's the third photo on the site.

Since it is a fabric belt, it's not out of the realm that it could have been machine stitched. Those stitches are just too uniform to be hand sewn, to my perspective anyway.

[VMI88]

Re: CS Saber Belt Question

The information came from Nick Nichols who found it in a private diary in the University of Virginia Collection. He was a member of Company F, 1st Virginia Cavalry. I have the guys's name somewhere in my notes, but Nick made a transcription of it and gave a copy to Dave Born. CD's weren't as uncommon as some might think in this neck of the woods. There's a published set of letters from a "Urjanus (sp) Allen" of the 21st Georgia who describes an issue of what sounds like Columbus Depot jackets in Virginia in October/Noember 1862.

John,

Not questioning your information, but I'd love to see that documentation if you turn it up. Unfortunately, it's unlikely that it would be specific enough to conclusively identify the issue of Columbus clothing in the ANV. A diary entry mentioning blue-trimmed jackets might be circumstantial evidence, but we need to be careful not to attribute every period reference to a known type.

By the way, like you, I believe that Columbus Depot jackets were probably issued in Virginia, and I look forward to conclusive proof surfacing some day!