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1833? vs 1840? vs 1860?
Hello, I’m new to the group and have a question I’m hoping someone can clear up. I have been trying to determine the source and origin of the nickname “wristbreaker” given to the 1840 American Dragoon saber.
My first guess was that it was a weight issue between the 1840 and the later model 1860. However upon looking at the ordanance manuals of the day the 1840 blade weighs 2.6 lbs and the 1860 blade weighs just a few ounces less. I believe this was achieved by basically shortening the blade of the 1860 while redesigning the knuckle bow and branches. The iron scabbard of the 1840 seems to weigh a pound more than the scabbard of the 1860, but it would seem if the scabbard were the cause of the nickname it would have been called the hipbreaker for the extra weight attached to the belt rather than carried in hand?
Or can it be documented that the term was developed due the weight difference between the 1840 and the earlier 1833 Model Sabre which was considered to have too flimsy of a blade?
I have also seen undocumented references to the term originating from when training troopers to thrust with the 1840 blade in “tierce point,” it was found the 1840 wanted to twist “overhand” or follow the curve of the blade as it sank in and therefore broke or sprained the wrist of the user…. BUT…. most sources claim the 1840 was a very close copy to the wildly popular French 1822 Model Sabre. The French traditionally used the point so it would seem if there were an issue with thrusting such a blade it would be identified elsewhere and I have not seen that documented anywhere else although it may be – though I don’t read French.
I have an original 1840 hanging on the wall - I fenced for roughly ten years, not that foot fencing has much at all to do with saddle bound fencing – and have found it be of good forward weight for the slashing and chopping most often described in first hand accounts. I have also read accounts of the point being used, though far less often, and I feel the 1840 blade has superior swinging characteristics than point characteristics but all the true experts (ie veterans) are dead regarding the use of these blades and watermelons, hay bales and stationary pig carcasses are no substitute for live targets. I also realize that a few ounces can make a tremendous difference in the balance of a sword - personally I found the forward balance and weight of cut of the 1840s to be superior to the one original 1860 I have held. I have never held one of the earlier 1833 model originals.
So, having exhausted these routes I turn to the forum. Can anyone document or guide me to the documentation of when the term wristbreaker was first used? Did it refer to an 1833 comparison? Did it refer to an 1860 comparison? And… was it based on weight or use characteristics?
Many thanks and pardon the lengthy screed! I did a search for wristbreaker with no luck so hopefully I didn’t miss this answer in a prior post.
Cheers,
Dan Murphy
Hello, I’m new to the group and have a question I’m hoping someone can clear up. I have been trying to determine the source and origin of the nickname “wristbreaker” given to the 1840 American Dragoon saber.
My first guess was that it was a weight issue between the 1840 and the later model 1860. However upon looking at the ordanance manuals of the day the 1840 blade weighs 2.6 lbs and the 1860 blade weighs just a few ounces less. I believe this was achieved by basically shortening the blade of the 1860 while redesigning the knuckle bow and branches. The iron scabbard of the 1840 seems to weigh a pound more than the scabbard of the 1860, but it would seem if the scabbard were the cause of the nickname it would have been called the hipbreaker for the extra weight attached to the belt rather than carried in hand?
Or can it be documented that the term was developed due the weight difference between the 1840 and the earlier 1833 Model Sabre which was considered to have too flimsy of a blade?
I have also seen undocumented references to the term originating from when training troopers to thrust with the 1840 blade in “tierce point,” it was found the 1840 wanted to twist “overhand” or follow the curve of the blade as it sank in and therefore broke or sprained the wrist of the user…. BUT…. most sources claim the 1840 was a very close copy to the wildly popular French 1822 Model Sabre. The French traditionally used the point so it would seem if there were an issue with thrusting such a blade it would be identified elsewhere and I have not seen that documented anywhere else although it may be – though I don’t read French.
I have an original 1840 hanging on the wall - I fenced for roughly ten years, not that foot fencing has much at all to do with saddle bound fencing – and have found it be of good forward weight for the slashing and chopping most often described in first hand accounts. I have also read accounts of the point being used, though far less often, and I feel the 1840 blade has superior swinging characteristics than point characteristics but all the true experts (ie veterans) are dead regarding the use of these blades and watermelons, hay bales and stationary pig carcasses are no substitute for live targets. I also realize that a few ounces can make a tremendous difference in the balance of a sword - personally I found the forward balance and weight of cut of the 1840s to be superior to the one original 1860 I have held. I have never held one of the earlier 1833 model originals.
So, having exhausted these routes I turn to the forum. Can anyone document or guide me to the documentation of when the term wristbreaker was first used? Did it refer to an 1833 comparison? Did it refer to an 1860 comparison? And… was it based on weight or use characteristics?
Many thanks and pardon the lengthy screed! I did a search for wristbreaker with no luck so hopefully I didn’t miss this answer in a prior post.
Cheers,
Dan Murphy
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