NCO Rank Trim

[kanesrifles]

Hey fellas,

I have been going through a few posts on the AC Forums trying to figure out if this subject has been discussed before, but haven't found anything. So here is my question:

What is the deal with rank trim for the NCO's? I have seen many photographs where soldiers bear the NCO stripes on they're sleeves, but dont have the rank trim on they're trowsers. Was rank trim for Noncoms more of an option, rather than a requirement? I have been doing corporal for my company for more than a year now; I wear the stripes, but not the trim. How important was rank trim for NCO's below the rank of 1st Sergeant?

Regards,

Cpl.Augie Marchetti
Kane's Rifle Regiment, Co. H
Phila, Pa.

[markj]

Re: NCO Rank Trim

Hi Augie,

The short answer to your question is, "It all depended on time, place, materials at hand, and even personal preferences." Troops back then were every bit as intelligent as we are today but they viewed the world very differently than we do. And this mindset extended to even such mundane things as "uniformity" and "compliance with regulations."

Indeed, true "uniformity" in American military uniforms is a pretty recent development. We didn't even have it in World War II.

Regards,

Mark Jaeger

[JimKindred]

Re: NCO Rank Trim

We don't have uniformity now. :)

The military has not changed much in the area of uniformity. In my unit, some warrant officers wear warrant branch insignia and some warrants wear cavalry branch insiginia. Some wear the American flag on the right sleeve some don't. Some wear cav hats, some wear berets. Some wear camo flight suits, some one piece green.

The regulations now as then left a lot of gray areas and exceptions.

[Charles Heath]

Re: NCO Rank Trim

Was rank trim for Noncoms more of an option, rather than a requirement? [/COLOR]

If you are having problems with "rank trim," consider upgrading the bordello in which you spend your reprodcution greenbacks. Simply leaving an establishment such as the Gem and going across the street to the Bella Union may reduce the rankness of said commodity. Should this post have been better placed in the sinks next to the piping question? :sarcastic

On the other hand, if you mean the trouser stripes per army regulations, then their wearing depends on the scenario. For example, diggiing through the ORs concerning the Carolinas Campaign will yield an excellent example in the form of an order for men to cut up clothing for rank insignia. One can imagine if such an order existed, then they were lacking chevrons, and most likely Uncle Billy's boys weren't all that concerned about trousers stripes. A well supplied garrison would no doubt have more opportunities for fashion as well as function.

Blanket statements are a broad brush with which to work, so it's best to research the scenario in question.

Charles Heath

[Tom Craig]

Re: NCO Rank Trim

Augie,
An interesting wrinkle to your question is this: I have a few pictures from the 1st Massachusetts Cavalry of NCO's wearing rank insignia on their trousers, but none on their sleeves. The fellows in the images are identified as NCO's so you can't say that they had been NCO's but had been reduced to the ranks.
In the same image you also see a fellow wearing a 1st Sgt diamond, but no chevrons!
Take care,
Tom Craig

[CJSchumacher]

Re: NCO Rank Trim

Augie,
An interesting wrinkle to your question is this: I have a few pictures from the 1st Massachusetts Cavalry of NCO's wearing rank insignia on their trousers, but none on their sleeves. The fellows in the images are identified as NCO's so you can't say that they had been NCO's but had been reduced to the ranks.
In the same image you also see a fellow wearing a 1st Sgt diamond, but no chevrons!
Take care,
Tom Craig

Tom,

I believe the habit of wearing stripes on trousers and none on a sack coat stem from the army regulation that chevrons were to be worn on the uniform jacket only. There is photographic evidence, such as the case of the 1st MA of this practice. However, the act of wearing chevrons on the fatigue blouse was clearly adopted during the ACW.

Again, there is no real answer because it is such a broad topic with evidence of numerous variations.

[Yellowhammer]

Re: NCO Rank Trim

Augie,

The first step in getting an answer to your question is to write with precision. As you can see, I think the phrasing of your question confused a few of those trying to help you (myself included).

"Trim" is primarily for decoration.

"Chevrons", generally tape or cloth worn on the sleeve denote rank.

"Trouser Stripes" also denote rank.

Were the required or optional? Well, that depends on your definition of "required." The US Army Regulations of 1861 state,

"1472. For Enlisted Men, except companies of Light Artillery--dark blue cloth; sergeants with a stripe one and one-half inch wide; corporals with a stripe one-half inch wide, of worsted lace, down and over the outer seam, of the color of the facings of the respective corps."

("Dark blue" was changed to "sky blue" but the regulations relating to stripes didn't change during the ACW.)

So, in accordance with army regulation, they are required. Were they "required" in the field? In some cases yes and in others no.
A quick search of any book of Civil War pictures will reveal NCOs with trouser stripes and without.

[RyanBWeddle]

Re: NCO Rank Trim

As a little addition to throw another wrench into the mix, we also need to allow for private purchase goods used by NCOs.

Here is a recent addition to my collection, a very nice image of an NCO, decked out in private purchase sack coat, vest and trowsers w/piping. And a honkin' bugle on his cap!

[hireddutchcutthroat]

Re: NCO Rank Trim

Augie,
An interesting wrinkle to your question is this: I have a few pictures from the 1st Massachusetts Cavalry of NCO's wearing rank insignia on their trousers, but none on their sleeves. The fellows in the images are identified as NCO's so you can't say that they had been NCO's but had been reduced to the ranks.
In the same image you also see a fellow wearing a 1st Sgt diamond, but no chevrons!
Take care,
Tom Craig

Tom

Im not familiar with the photo which you are refering to. But it is common in period photos of cavalry to have the gold trim not to be picked up by the camera. Here is a photo of a member of the 2nd Mass Cav, who on the surface is not wearing cheverons, but on closer examination it is clear that he is.

[BrianHicks]

Federal Volunteer Infantry NCO Trousers. Trim/Stripe question

For Federal Volunteer Infantry NCO's. Specificaly, Orderly Sgt/1stSgt and SgtMaj types.

What type of material is used for the stripes down the outside seem of thier trousers (when, that is... they actually had the stripes on their trousers).

Width? Material, etc.

Modern Source for such cloth/stripes?

[markj]

Re: Federal Volunteer Infantry NCO Trousers. Trim/Stripe question

Hi Brian,

Your question is addressed in para. 1500 "Revised Regulations for the United States Army." If you don't have a copy of this handy, let me know and I'll give you the quote. I would, however, point out that trouser stripes for sergeants are not specifically described when it comes to material although, oddly, those for corporals are required to be of "worsted lace."

One possible clue regarding the intent in this area can be found in para. 1577 discussing enlisted chevrons. Those for first sergeants on down were to be of "worsted," while those for ordnance, QM, and sergeant majors were to be of "silk." One can then posit that it was "ditto" for trouser stripes. However, as we know only too well, there was a big chasm between what was required and what was actually done. Indeed, as you'll see in the attached images showing troops of Companies D and G, 93rd NYVI, there was significant variation even within individual companies. And, further, the individuals shown are the ONLY two NCO's depicted wearing visible trouser stripes--everyone else has dispensed with them. In the case of the NCO wearing the sack coat, it's clear the color variation between his indigo-colored coat and his trouser stripes was significant--the stripes may have been a medium- to medium-dark blue.

Another point of interest is the first sergeant wearing "raised relief" insignia. This seems to have been more common that I initially believed because, it so happens, there is an enlisted dress coat on display at the Indiana Civil War Museum, ID'd to a first sergeant of the 122nd Ohio, with almost identical "3-D" insignia.

As always, you be the judge! Perhaps C. J. Daley or Nick ************ can further illuminate you in this area based on original items they've examined.

Regards,

Mark Jaeger

[BrianHicks]

Re: Federal Volunteer Infantry NCO Trousers. Trim/Stripe question

Thank you.

Your info, and tha the attached images were a great help.

[1stMaine]

Re: Federal Volunteer Infantry NCO Trousers. Trim/Stripe question

Comrade Hicks,

About 8 years ago I was able to examine an original pair of Sergeant's trousers at Fort Douglas, in Salt lake City. The stripes appeared to be made from a sack coat, or sack coat material, and were definately wool. Interestingly enough, they had been stitched down over the outer trouser seam, but stopped at the base of the trouser pocket entrance.
Whether these were done by the soldier as a field expediant, or were made this way, I could not tell. The sewing was excellent, and if it was done by the soldier, he either was well versed in the trade, or had a LOT of time on his hands:)
respects,

[Rmhisteach]

Re: Federal Volunteer Infantry NCO Trousers. Trim/Stripe question

Pards and comrades . What about the width of the stripe?


RM

[Curt Schmidt]

Re: Federal Volunteer Infantry NCO Trousers. Trim/Stripe question

Hallo!

From the 1861 Regulations:

1472--For Enlisted Men, except companies of Light Artillery--dark blue cloth; sergeants with a stripe one and one-half inch wide; corporals with a stripe one-half inch wide, of worsted lace, down and over the outer seam, of the color of the facings of the respective corps.

Curt