NCO Rank Trim

[Rmhisteach]

Re: Federal Volunteer Infantry NCO Trousers. Trim/Stripe question

Thanks Curt,

I kept searching and found it later in the day. I appreciate it though.

Rod

[JimCarrol]

Trousers

What would a 1st Sgt in the Cavalry have worn on his trousers (stripes) Looking for width, material, and where it can be bought.

[Andrew German]

Re: Trousers

Greetings:

Technically, a cavalry sergeant would be wearing trousers "with a stripe one and one-half inch wide, ... of worsted lace, down and over the outer seam" in cavalry yellow, according to the Revised United States Army Regulations of 1861, item 1500. When not on campaign this may have been adhered to, but in the field, with trousers wearing out in a few months or less and with no ready source for the lace to sew on (they didn't come pre-sewn), many sergeants were only distinguished by their chevrons. The earliest issues were dark blue trousers, but by 1862 cavalry was receiving sky-blue trousers.

Hope this helps,
Andrew German

[sleepy]

Trouser Stripes?

I have a pair of Schuylkill Arsenal trousers and need to sew on Corporal stripes. What is the proper placement of these? On the front of the seam and on then the edge of pocket or back of the seam? In the unifrom regulations of 1861 that I looked at from another thread, it refers to these stripes as "worsted lace". What exactly is "worsted lace"?

Brian Hammons
101st PVI

[dbuckley]

Re: Trouser Stripes?

"Need" them or 'want' them. Depending on the unit and time frame portayed, you may find most NCO's did not have tape on their trowsers, especially late war. Putting stripes on the sleeves was enough, and men in a company always knew who the NCO's were anyway.
I tell my corporals not to bother with the stripe.
There, I just saved you time and money.

[AZReenactor]

Re: Trouser Stripes?

From what I understand, the trouser stripe placement is along the front of the leg seam of the trouser. Worsted Lace is another name for what we now call worsted wool twill tape.

I would hesitate to discount trousers stripes outright. The regulations did indeed call for them and there are numerous accounts of trouser trim being being issued as well as more than a few photos of NCOs so kitted out. The key is to not jump on the current reenactor standard, even if it does provide for trousers that can be conveniently used for a variety of impressions or save time and money, but rather to carefully research the specific impression you are developing. At least in my unit, the 1st California Infantry, this includes trouser stripes for NCOs. More often than folks realize, the information is there if one is willing to do the work to uncover it.

One item I would also suggest to consider when bringing our modern "common sense" to the matter of rank insignia is to recognize that rank insignia isn't merely for the men serving under an NCO but just as much for officers and others, in and out of the chain of command, to quickly recognize who has authority in the field. Trouser stripes aren't merely decorative but functional (especially when overcoats are being worn).

The key is to push beyond the quick easy answer and dig deeply into the research materials that are available

[LeftCoastYank]

Re: NCO Rank Trim

Sorry to revive a old thread, but this seem the best place to post a similar question. I have noted that the convention seems to be that reproduction NCO chevrons are always supplied with a backing, which folks then attach to the coat or blouse.

Is this a documented period practice or a reenactorism?

I've never had the opportunity to examine an original NCO's uniform and period photographs have never help me with this question.

Dave Schwartz,
An orphan Yank on the Left Coast.

[Johnny Lloyd]

Re: NCO Rank Trim

We don't have uniformity now. :)

The military has not changed much in the area of uniformity. In my unit, some warrant officers wear warrant branch insignia and some warrants wear cavalry branch insiginia. Some wear the American flag on the right sleeve some don't. Some wear cav hats, some wear berets. Some wear camo flight suits, some one piece green.

The regulations now as then left a lot of gray areas and exceptions.

Sorry, Dave... didn't see your post above... got halfway through typing this bloody thing and then noticed it...

BUT...

Jim, dead-on for today's military... in the Army in Iraq, I wore ACU uniform but BDU and DCU patterns on my equipment while in combat from 2006-2007 (though not as much of the BDU woodland pattern).

Heck... I was attached to Marines and wore their patterns on my equipment sometimes (ex: my rank pin was a Marine Captain's rank, my equipment pouches on my IBA were Marine solid brown color too).

From being in a real Quartermaster Battalion of today's military, I can safely say that what one is issued is generally dependant upon who one is stationed with.

Unless you're doing garrison duty, dress parade or other ceremony, then uniformity is rare even by today's standards... I cannot imagine this as being too different in the 1860s from documents I have read and pictures I have seen either.

Okay... back to Dave's fascinating question. :D

All the best- Johnny Lloyd :wink_smil

[Huck]

Re: NCO Rank Trim

Questions for the masses who have studied a fair number of NCO trouser. On average, the placement of the trouser stripe for NCO, was it placed over the seam then slightly curves to the back of the opening slit for the pocket, or was it place to the front of the seam and straight up over the front of the pocket? Or did it just end at the bottom of the opening for the pocket?

[thad gallagher]

Re: NCO Rank Trim

I know I am reviving this once more, but I am looking for some info trouser stripes for dark blue trowsers. Was the striping a light/sky blue or more kersey in nature? I have recieved both shades from Needle & Thread, and there is a drastic difference.

Looking at period images has been inconclusive for me since it is hard to tell the shades of blue. Has anyone been able to exam such an item?

Thanks for the input.

[PieBoy96]

Re: NCO Rank Trim

Jeff, oddly enough I was just at N&T buying tape for trousers and know exactly what you're talking about. I believe among their wool tape, they have a shade that leans slightly more "purpleish" and one that leans more to a true sky blue. I would recommend the latter since it leans more towards a true blue. I personally ended up going with their Mohair tape... I have chevrons made by Sullivan and he opts for the Mohair... and in going with the "variety" seen on originals, I went with something a little different.

Also, in reading through this thread, all I can say is that there was huge variation in everything from the material of the stripes (scrap wool, wool twill tape, etc) to the placement of it. I've seen original trousers with the stripes on the front of the seam and over the pockets, and trousers that have the tape stop at the button of the pocket. As with so much stuff, there really is no black-and-white answer.

I attached a high res. photo of an original pair of Cpl. trousers that happens to employ worsted wool tape that goes over the pocket. From http://historical.ha.com/common/view...5&Lot_No=57510