Buy Used - Yeah Right: The Golden Age of Suppliers

[Steven Dacus]

I am admittedly new to this hobby with only having purchased my first sack coat from NJ S**** only 5 years ago. To make sure I got it right, I spent about two years researching before I made my first purchased since “everybody” said to not buy anything without knowing exactly what to buy. Through my research and subsequent experience in this end of the hobby I feel I have missed some type of “golden age” of suppliers and vendors. It seems like all the good campaigner suppliers have retired, dried up, or vanished only to be left fighting over their remaining used products circulating among the few thousand of us.

This sentiment is further compounded with my side of the hobby…Mounted Cavalry. We have no new supply of “anything” truly authentic or campaigner quality; no blanket supplier, no saddle maker, the only supply of Girth webbing just went out of business, no good leather maker for slings, no quality carbine snaps, and personally for me…..no good supplier of contract mounted greatcoats.

As the years go on, I am getting ever frustrated in my desire to get quality gear (willing to pay double what it is worth) with no way to get it. While buying used is a great suggestion, it has not been a realistic avenue for acquisition. I have been waiting to find a quality used mounted contract greatcoat for two years, I have been looking for an Allegany Saddle for 14 months, and in the rare event something comes up for sale, I am usually too late in purchasing it as I work 80 hour weeks and don’t see the “for sale” post before it’s already taken.
Therefore, since I still want to attend events and be as active as possible in the hobby, I feel forced to purchase “temporary” mainstream greatcoats, saddles, blankets, bits, girths, carbine slings, clips, thimbles, etc.

This same issue can be extended to research material like the CRRC, Campaigner’s Handbook, ACH, and other references that so many refer to…however, many who want access to this valuable information do not have it.

The suggestion to not buy mainstream and wait for used products works for sack coats, frocks, and some headgear but I feel is no longer realistic. In talking with others in this hobby, I know I am not alone in this frustration (at least with those new to the hobby).

I do not have any solutions; however, I feel it is important to share these thoughts as I have been “looked down” on for using mainstream gear….to which I have said….. “show me where to buy and I will willingly buy it right now.” Others have come to be incentivized to NOT participate because they don’t have quality gear.

The Golden Age of quality vendors seems to have been before my time. So my open question to this community is how do we encourage those new to this hobby to come and participate without spending thousands on mainstream gear to “get going” just to spend thousands more to cycle through their mainstream kit?

[The Chesterfield Rifleman]

Re: “Buy Used” – Yeah Right: The Golden Age of Suppliers

As a young guy new to this side of the hobby, I feel your pain. Most of the good blanket suppliers have all either slimmed down their offerings or ceased production altogether. For uniform articles, you now have two, maybe three options, and if you want a kit, you pretty much have one. Want shoes? You're down to one guy. Leather accoutrements? It's all done by guys on Facebook in custom quantities.

I'm seeing two trends in the products department. The first being that most of the "granddaddy" vendors have either retired or gone out of business, so the ones that have remained have consolidated certain areas of production and created mini monopolies.

The second being that with the boom of social media such as Facebook, you have a lot of back-alley garage tradesmen, making custom works such as shoes or cartridge boxes either on the side or as a stopgap to poverty between jobs. These vendors, while talented, are volatile and are gone about as soon as they gain a small following.

Now, what does this mean for the quality of the goods currently being sold? Surprisingly, the quality is better than it has ever been. I'm seeing a lot more hand made items, a lot more research going into the articles, and frankly, a lot more love and care in production. And while prices have risen slightly, they've managed to remain relatively stable as far as I can tell.

The downside, however, is that due to the mini monopolies previously mentioned, I see a lot of small inaccuracies played out on a large scale.

Also, a lot of new guys, especially relatively fit ones, are at the mercy of ridiculous sizing, where the vendors target market appear to be very tall, very obese men.

And purchasing a used jacket under a size 42 or pants under a 34 is a challenge in and of itself, never mind a blanket or a belt.

The vendors that are around are good, don't get me wrong. It just feels like there isn't as much selection as there once was, even when I first started some 7 years ago.

So I sympathize. Maybe those who are "in the know" can shed some more light on this issue.

[rbruno]

Re: “Buy Used” – Yeah Right: The Golden Age of Suppliers

Steve,
I have notice the same issues with things that you have. I think we have both participated in discussions on it on facebook. The cavalry side faces many more challenges than the infantry side. I have been in the hobby for about 25 years. I came in and bought mainstream stuff and was around for somewhat of the hay day of vendors. I had two problems at the time, I didn't know much better (wasn't part of a group that went for the high end stuff) and I couldn't afford it. So, I did what many did, I replaced things over the years when I could afford it. I only have one item from my first year of reenacting. Everything else has been sold and replaced. And you are right, very few of the vendors from that time are still around. I agree with James that there are a lot of people who are doing good things on the side when it comes to equipment and clothing. I started making most of the uniform pieces for guys in my unit. I trickle out things here and there, but certainly am not trying to do it for a business. But, I don't know anyone tackling horse equipment. There are just so few of us left that actually care about doing it right that it is hard to find someone to commit to doing the work. And as you mentioned about the girth webbing, one of the biggest issue is finding a correct saddle tree for instance to even start which we have also discussed many times on facebook.

So, my suggestions for essential two of your thoughts/questions. To get people started I think individuals in units should look to lend people gear to get them started. I think most of us have let guys borrowing things to get started. People did that for me when I first started, and I have done that before myself. I have accumulated 4 different saddles. I would rather lend one to someone for an event then have them ride a modern saddle to be able to participate. I know others have done the same thing. To get people started, I think that is an option.

As far as vendors, I think as a group, which would be very challenging, we would need to try and agree to have one thing produced so we can purchase a bulk of items. We would then need to reach out to a vendor/manufacture to see if it would be worth it for to make several of one item. It would be a slow process but it might be the only way we get some things made specifically for cavalry. We talked about that with saddle trees. John Nolan tried to get that going for a Fed saddle blanket. Christopher Wilson did this several years ago for British cavalry sabre. I can't remember the number we had to buy, but it is one of the better repro sabres out there, and I am glad I got one when I did. I think that is what we need to do is try and pick an item, get a number together, and approach a vendor.

[WestTN_reb]

Re: Buy Used - Yeah Right: The Golden Age of Suppliers

As one of those "really obese" guys, I've always found getting quality used gear to next to impossible. Sure, I've gotten a few items here and there, but I end up making most of my own uniform/gear items.

[coastaltrash]

Re: Buy Used - Yeah Right: The Golden Age of Suppliers

I don’t even do cav and can think of two vendors that make great horse equipment. (Doug Kidd and Karl Pepper) and that’s not counting “cottage guys” like Butch Myers. Shoes? ************, Serio, Jan Berger, Lukas Berg? Seems like more than 1. Pretty sure Joe Blunt or Joe Hill will knock out any cav uniform item you need.

[JimConley]

Re: Buy Used - Yeah Right: The Golden Age of Suppliers

Even during said “golden age” of quality vendors, there were still a lot of folks that wouldn’t spend the money for the best reproductions out there. It is expensive. Too, prices have increased. Much of that can be explained by simply looking at the rising costs of raw materials and a significant decrease in supply. Oak tanned leather and all wool materials, for example, have both lowered in supply and risen in cost.

To Landrum’s point, what you’re seeking is still available. You don’t have to scour the forums or FB for used items either. Or, sacrifice quality. Joe Hill, in Cincinnati, is one name that I will always mention for uniform and clothing items. He can manufacture any uniform item you would require for a cavalry impression with the utmost attention to pattern, materials, and proper construction. Joe has examined a lot of original items and drafted patterns for many of them, including mounted services pieces. Let’s not forget that Charlie Childs is still cutting kits and offering finished garments as well, though in a much more limited capacity.

For leather accoutrements, there are still several people that I know to be making quality reproductions. Brian Merrick, Lukas Berg, Brad Malone, Tim Welch, and Robert Serio are all folks that can accommodate. Lukas has extensive experience with saddlery as well, so I wouldn’t hesitate to contact him. For shoes and boots, you need to look no further than Jan Berger or, again, Lukas Berg.

Regarding headgear, Tim Allen is still making slouch hats surpassed by none. Cody Mobley may also be available for slouch hat projects. Greg Starbuck doesn’t seem to have missed a step making caps. Paul Smith caps can still be had through S&S Sutler, I believe. And, Lukas Berg still makes great caps too. You may also be able to twist Jason Wickersty’s arm for a cap too.

Blankets are scarce. But, they were always only available in limited supply. I assure you, someone out there will capitalize on this and do another blanket run at some point.

Point is, what you folks are looking for is available. The vendors and artisans that I mentioned make items that are every bit as true to originals, or more so, than some of the makers that have retired.

Lastly, for research, all of the materials that are referenced in the aforementioned compilations are still available. They never left. You don’t need a copy of the CRRC or the RCCH. Those specific publications are a reenactors guide to being a reenactor anyhow. Instead, how about the Library of Congress documents and photographs, ORs, drill manuals, clothing and equipment returns, letters, diaries, sketches, museums, trade shows, published collections, and primary source based books? The Company of Military Historians? I could rattle off so many authors and researchers. To name a few, though, Les Jensen, Fred Gaede, Mike O’Donnell, Thomas Arliskas, Fred Adolphus, Larry Daniel, Bill Styple, Rick Baumgartner, Craig Barry and Dave Burt.

[Mike Ventura]

Re: Buy Used - Yeah Right: The Golden Age of Suppliers

Steven -

I did "authentic" cav for several years, back in the heyday of the Critters. I've been selling great stuff for years, with very few takers. I had a Butch Myers (THE BEST) Federal saber belt that was listed on the various sites for two years. I just sold it at a discount. Same with a bunch of other gear. Find Joe Blunt - he can make you a mounted greatcoat. Find John Nolan (he does authentic cav) and ask if his wife Jodi is still making stuff. She did a custom mounted greatcoat for me several years ago. Talk to Don Smith about accoutrements. YES, there are no great saddle makers (and Doug Kidd is NOT an "authentic" maker, but he WILL do custom, hand sewn stuff to order). Otrher than saddle makers, there are still some good vendors - you just need to know who they are.

[rbruno]

Re: Buy Used - Yeah Right: The Golden Age of Suppliers

I think what Steve is mentioning is more for horse equipment. I don't want to make an assumption of Steve's point, but based on conversations in other forums and around camp fires, it is more about equipment and items specifically for cavalry, not just shoes, uniforms, belts, etc. As Mike said, Doug Kidd is not what we would look for as very authentic. In my humble opinion, his work is not what it was 20 years ago. Yes, he will do some custom stuff which is better, but his off the shelf items are not necessarily what we wold want. I have a Carl Pepper saddle and Carl is great to work with and I think he does a better job then Kidd, but compared to past vendors, it is not as good. As mentioned for uniforms finding good wool is getting harder, the larger issue is the raw materials, ie saddle trees, are not around the way they were before. Even the correct iron buckles and hardware is not as available as in the past.

Mike, do you still have that set of civilian saddle bags you have for sale a while back?

[Steven Dacus]

Re: Buy Used - Yeah Right: The Golden Age of Suppliers

As Rob Bruno pointed out, my focus of posting this thought was specifically regarding saddle trees, quality carbine swivels, carbine sling hardware, Saddle blankets, etc. The only other thing related to clothing was a mounted greatcoat (I don’t have time to make one let alone research what it would take). As many people have already stated there are a number of decent options for clothing, footwear, etc. Some of the buckles I need to replace on some of my saddles are almost impossible to find. I posted this to continue the conversation and on a side note see how many people would be interested in doing a run of quality ‘59 Mac trees.

[Saddlebum123]

Re: Buy Used - Yeah Right: The Golden Age of Suppliers

As a former member of the Critter company and now retired I have many items that I would be willing to part with. There are too many to list here but a short list would include saddle trees, iron ware and components for making for saddles, complete saddles, blankets, great coats, leather, weapons, etc, etc ,etc, etc. contact me and we can talk. Still in Southern service, Kerry Gallivan

[Ambrose Bierce]

Re: Buy Used - Yeah Right: The Golden Age of Suppliers

Stuart Lillie is, bar none, the best saddle maker out there. Look him up; he makes 18th and 19th century stuff. Details equals dollars, as always.

[Steven Dacus]

Re: Buy Used - Yeah Right: The Golden Age of Suppliers

Yes, but is he open to new orders? His website hasn't been updated since 2014 and his Facebook page is unique one-off's. Does he still make 59 mac's?

[rbruno]

Re: Buy Used - Yeah Right: The Golden Age of Suppliers

Stuart made 2 Jennifer saddles not too long ago that I think someone had asked him to make a while back. I believe he is going back to catch up on orders for 18th century items which is his main era. I believe he has expressed the same issue of finding the correct trees. I would also agree that Stuart does unbelievable work and is a true craftsman and artist. He would be one of the choices to contact about making a group of saddles, but again, finding the material will be the tough part.

[ccastellani]

Re: Buy Used - Yeah Right: The Golden Age of Suppliers

As a relatively new guy to the reenacting community, I would just search "Civil War Sutlers" in a search engine and look at the different sutlers.

Now watching "hardcore" authentic campaigners on YouTube (11th OVC... Company D 2nd USSS... Civil War Digital Digest and many many more) I feel really disappointed by some of the main-stream sutlers. Even now visiting Sutlers Row at some events and really looking at their products, you can definitely tell that the majority of their products are for the tourists and visitors that come to the events, not to the campaigners.

But can you blame them? I guess it comes down to what Steven said, gotta do your research.

Or make (or have your significant other) make your own. :)

[Tom Craig]

Re: Buy Used - Yeah Right: The Golden Age of Suppliers

Most of our compatriots who don't do mounted cavalry have no idea how difficult it is to have highest quality saddles, tack and gear at this point. Stuart Lillie is great, but he isn't taking CW orders for at least a year, if not longer. Duvall did fantastic work but left hobby production, in part because even he couldn't get the raw materials. Kidd can do OK work, but I've heard that he is on his way out of production as well. Materials are difficult or nearly impossible and the craftsmen to make them aren't offering their services. And quite frankly the market is smaller than I've ever seen it.

For those of you who don't know Steve, he has single handedly created a top notch unit in Wyoming, largely buy buying enough equipment to outfit at least six guys from the ground up. I don't that I've met someone as committed to reenacting, and doing it right as Steve is in a long time.

Like antiques in New England attics there still is lots of gear secreted away in terms of used stuff but the trick is finding it. Better would be finding folks who can and will make new stuff so that we can keep going and growing.

Take care,
Tom Craig
1st Maine Cavalry