Confederate Officer's Saddle

[Iron Scout]

Gentlemen,

Old South Military Antiques has recently sold a purported CS officer's saddle. The example has appeared on the cover of Howard Crouch's new book on saddlery. Check: www.oldsouthantiques.com and click on the catalog portion. I'll be interested in hearing everyone's thoughts.

Neill Rose
PLHA

[Mike Ventura]

Re: Confederate Officer's Saddle

I would be very interested to hear Ken Knopp's thought on this one.

[courier]

Re: Confederate Officer's Saddle

Did anyone note the owners of Old South Antiques?
Regards,Rick Harris

[Iron Scout]

Re: Confederate Officer's Saddle

Rick,

I'm not sure I understand what you mean by "note the owners...".

Neill Rose
PLHA

[GBaylor]

Re: Confederate Officer's Saddle

Neill,

The name is Pritchard, as in Russ Pritchard who swindled peple like George Pickett the IV and folks on the "Antique's Roadshow". I don't know if these two are related.

As for the saddle. I'd say it's a McClellan tree, but without looking more closely at the hardware and construction I couldn't say for sure. My bet, it's likely an '04


John Sweeney

[Iron Scout]

Re: Confederate Officer's Saddle

Guys,

I'm familiar with old Russ and his antics. These folks are a completely different outfit and actually (usually) have excellent CS items. Just as a point of clarification. I'd love to see the girth, rings and stirrups on this thing.

Neill Rose
PLHA

[GBaylor]

Re: Confederate Officer's Saddle

Neill,

I wasn't saying that this guy was related, just that was what the other poster was refering to.

The saddle looks to have items that look to be of U.S. Government origin. The brass screws, cut of skirts, and of course the tree. The front of the pommel doesn't look hawk-billed enough to be a CW period tree. Although, I too, would like to see the hardware. I would also like to compare it to the Symington saddle. If it is a C.S. Officer's Mac made at Clarksville, then it should resemble the Symington saddle you'd think. Just my $.02

John Sweeney

[moarkcav]

Re: Confederate Officer's Saddle

Did anyone see the wood canteen with saber wrist strap for a sling? That is sort of interesting. Not that I want to do it. Has anyone ever heard of that being done?

Thanks,

Chris Talburt

[CJSchumacher]

Re: Confederate Officer's Saddle

Neill,

I wasn't saying that this guy was related, just that was what the other poster was refering to.

The saddle looks to have items that look to be of U.S. Government origin. The brass screws, cut of skirts, and of course the tree. The front of the pommel doesn't look hawk-billed enough to be a CW period tree. Although, I too, would like to see the hardware. I would also like to compare it to the Symington saddle. If it is a C.S. Officer's Mac made at Clarksville, then it should resemble the Symington saddle you'd think. Just my $.02

John Sweeney

I'm in agreement with John here...I just keep thinking U.S. What sticks out to me is the cantle. The pommel looks okay, but that flatter cantle doesn't mesh. Unless, you look to the older Allegheny Arsenal trees, which if I remember correctly were configured like this...ie. high pommel, low cantle.

Don't know...as I told Sweeney earlier...I'm still out on this one, but I'd love to see it up close. The hooded stirrups would help as well if we could more clearly see them, and I dig the padded bars.

How do they know this was made in Clarksville?? Is it marked?

[GBaylor]

Re: Confederate Officer's Saddle

Guys,

Just to add something here for the general discussion; Symington's saddle was an U.S. Allegheny tree originally before being remade for Symington.

John Sweeney

[Iron Scout]

Re: Confederate Officer's Saddle

Chris, et al,

That's just it; there is no formal documentable link to Clarksville that I know of on this one. I think it is just conjecture. Generally, these folks sell some really high-speed stuff but the saddle and the recent haversack are somewhat questionable. Does anyone have this new(er) book by Howard Crouch? If it's on the cover it may be detailed in the contents. I may email Old South and see if they can provide some more pics if possible.

This saddle bears a striking resemblance to one that came on the market here in SC several years ago ID's to Col. Asbury Coward, 5th SCVI. After much study and restudy; I determined it to be a post war saddle that belonged to Col. Coward but not his wartime one. This may be the case here too. I dunno; as stated, the stirrups and hoods along with the girth may help if we could see them. Interesting though!

Neill Rose
PLHA

[T.Kern]

Re: Confederate Officer's Saddle

Chris, et al,

That's just it; there is no formal documentable link to Clarksville that I know of on this one. I think it is just conjecture. Generally, these folks sell some really high-speed stuff but the saddle and the recent haversack are somewhat questionable. Does anyone have this new(er) book by Howard Crouch? If it's on the cover it may be detailed in the contents. I may email Old South and see if they can provide some more pics if possible.

This saddle bears a striking resemblance to one that came on the market here in SC several years ago ID's to Col. Asbury Coward, 5th SCVI. After much study and restudy; I determined it to be a post war saddle that belonged to Col. Coward but not his wartime one. This may be the case here too. I dunno; as stated, the stirrups and hoods along with the girth may help if we could see them. Interesting though!

Neill Rose
PLHA

It has the look of a catalog saddle, it would be better to get a closer look. Some signs are; the shape, the large headed saddle nails, the amount and type of brass screws and tacks, the bars appear to be leather wrapped rather than stuffed panel or bare, the hood's attatchment nails, the lack of slots and rings, and the leather girth. I would like to see the stirrups also. Look at some of the old catalogs, they are almost identical.
Sincerely, Todd Kern

[ButtermilkRanger]

Re: Confederate Officer's Saddle

I'd never heard of this dealer until I read this thread, so I have no idea if he thinks he has the proper documentation on this saddle or not. Nor do I dispute the probability that this may be a catalogue saddle. On the other hand, there are some things about the saddle that interest me and make me wonder if it is indeed authentic.

There is a saddle very similar to this in overall appearance in the collection of ID'd cavalry equipments at the Confederate Museum (Confederate Memorial Hall) in New Orleans. The saddle at CMH is ID'd to Capt. E.M.(?) Hudson (same guy the saddle bags are ID'd to in EOG). The Hudson saddle has an extremely small seat, maybe 10" at best. In fact, the saddle bags are actually larger than the saddle proportionally. However, it is very, very similiar to this saddle in construction. There are no rings, staples, slots or any other hardware except the iron rings on the quarterstraps. There are a few screws holding the small skirts to the tree, but they appear to be iron rather than brass. The shape of the tree is more of a pear shape than any Federal Macs I've seen.

Now, the real question is, is the Hudson saddle in CMH authentic or is IT a catalogue saddle that somehow got put on display. I'm not willing to rule out an oversight on the part of the curators at CMH, but considering the attention to detail of John Baines and the people over there, I'm hesitant to think that they didn't do their research beforehand. According to the officials at CMH, their collection is second in size only to the Confederate Museum in Richmond and no less worthy of close scrutiny. Quite a bit of the original stuff found in EoG is from the Hall in N.O.

Of course I have no idea as to who the maker was or where the saddle was supposed to have been produced for the Hudson piece, but it's there nonetheless. Now, what does this have to do with the saddle being discussed in this thread? Not a whole lot, but it is worth noting that at least one saddle from a very reputable source is similar in appearance.

Just my 2 cents. Of course it's not worth much.

Larry Morgan
Buttermilk Rangers LHC

[Mike Ventura]

Re: Confederate Officer's Saddle

Although you can't tell much from this image, here's the picture from Confederate Memorial Hall's web site showing the saddle that Larry refers to in his above post.

A cursory glance at this image and the images that Neill referenced seems to support Larry's thesis.
(Larry, call me if you don't understand "thesis";) )

[ButtermilkRanger]

Re: Confederate Officer's Saddle

Mike,

That's the saddle. Unfortunately, the pic isn't very clear so it's hard to see any of the details. What struck me as odd about the CMH saddle is the size in proportion to everything around it. In the pic that you provided, if you'll look at the sabre lying next to it, you can see the distance of the length of the hilt is nearly half as long as the saddle itself.

As for thesis, I like that word. Did you find the word "thesis" in a thesarus of a Thermopylean thespian?

:tounge_sm