Excess coat straps--tucked or rolled?

[10nycav]

A question came up at the last event I went to as to whether excess coat straps should be rolled or tucked. I seem to recall that they should be tucked but now I can't find the source where I read that. The other Cav unit at the event had them rolled up but I would think that you don't want anything projecting up from the blanket roll . . . just one more thing for a spur to get caught up in if one were inadvertently dismounted . . .

So if anyone can help with a period source on the correct way of doing things I would appreciate it.

Thanks,
Ken Morris

[Chuck Winchester]

Re: Excess coat straps--tucked or rolled?

Ken,
I don't have any period documentation so any thing I can add here is just my opinion (and you know what that say about opinions) or just experience in the field. I am reminded of Randy Stephen's excellent drawings showing them tightly rolled when the blanket is attached, or rolled around themselves and buckled when the blanket isn't present. But as good as his drawings are they are still secondary evidence. In the field I've never been able to roll them tight enough to get through more than an hour or so of "real" riding...walk, trot, gallup, though all sorts of terrain. When they are rolled though they really do look smart. I've also tried tucking them with the same measure of success, that is to say, they come untucked after thirty or forty minutes riding.
Then as now it likely depended on circumstance and varied according to unit. Personal taste, what they rest of the men are doing and how much of a stickler your x.o. is has an influence on what you do. This would be a good time to put some of the new close-up photo. technology now available to work. I'm sure period photo's can help. I'll start looking. Good question.
Charles Winchester
Critter Coy.
Pickett's Mill Battlefield

[Outrider]

Re: Excess coat straps--tucked or rolled?

I agree with my pard Chuck on this . Ive tried it all and from my experience tucking them is the only wayto go although rolling looks much better. Without fail rolling them did not hold up to the riding. However Like Chuck said I know of no documentation one way or the other. seems to me this would be one of those common sense deals. Personally I find it a pain in the!@%$* to use three straps two is easier and Ive never had a problem with anything working lose etc.

[T.Kern]

Re: Excess coat straps--tucked or rolled?

I agree with my pard Chuck on this . Ive tried it all and from my experience tucking them is the only wayto go although rolling looks much better. Without fail rolling them did not hold up to the riding. However Like Chuck said I know of no documentation one way or the other. seems to me this would be one of those common sense deals. Personally I find it a pain in the!@%$* to use three straps two is easier and Ive never had a problem with anything working lose etc.

I would like to point out the reason for three straps, as illustrated in manuals and compediums. First, the army don't give a * about your pain or ease and anything working loose is just one of the jobs of coat straps. What the army does give a * about is the comfort/function of the animal, As pointed out in Congdon's, the center strap is to be tightened enough to raise the overcoat(pommel) or bedroll (Cantle) off the horse's withers or back so the mount remains fresher. All effects placed on the saddle should be high, tight, and balanced.

I remain ,
your humble servant,
Todd Kern

[Outrider]

Re: Excess coat straps--tucked or rolled?

Mr Kern,

I always keep everything tight on my saddle. I carry very little actually.

I have never once had any problem with my horses comfort as I place it far above my own. The Texas saddle I use for CS has no place for a third strap anyway so it is a mute point. I suspect any discomfort to a horses back is more a result of improper saddling/blanket folding and poor horsemanship than a blanket roll not being held "up high".

[wildrose]

Re: Excess coat straps--tucked or rolled?

A question came up at the last event I went to as to whether excess coat straps should be rolled or tucked. I seem to recall that they should be tucked but now I can't find the source where I read that. The other Cav unit at the event had them rolled up but I would think that you don't want anything projecting up from the blanket roll . . . just one more thing for a spur to get caught up in if one were inadvertently dismounted . . .

So if anyone can help with a period source on the correct way of doing things I would appreciate it.

Thanks,
Ken Morris

For a point of interest the members that had their straps rolled had been used in a color guard two days prior to the event. They provided a color guard at the activation ceremonies of the 116th Cav unit in LaGrande Oregon. The unit is being sent to the Iraq theater for combat duties. The history of Cavalry in the area can be dated back to the Civil War when forts in the area were established at Hanes and Baker. The Forts were manned with the 1st Oregon for duty against possible Indian uprising and to watch Confederate sympathizers.

Bobby Rose

[GeraldTodd]

Re: Excess coat straps--tucked or rolled?

Tuck 'em. Who has time to sit and make cute little rolls with their coat-straps?

[lesterschumacher]

Re: Excess coat straps--tucked or rolled?

Lester the elder and many others I know make time to roll them. However, I will also let them flap. My vast experience in the military, 30 years, taught me "spit and polish" even in warfare. clean your weapon, clean the head, hone the deck etc. is all part of the image of the military, reinforcing discipline,keeping your gear in good working order, reducing accidents, etc.

Concerning making the coatstraps up by rolling the bitter end concentrically around the buckle side of the strap is validated by a photo taken at Giesboro Mounted Depot in Washington City (Currently the site of Bolling Air Force Base) of a mounted cavalry sgt with his saddle made-up that I own and is primary source material.

Additionally, Coatstraps, prior to the CW and during the CW were permanently attached to the Saddle by a 1 inch sewn piece of leather 8 inches from the buckle of the coatstrap. later during the war it was changed to a copper rivit in the same location. This allowed a standard lenght for straping items to the saddle, ease in making up the strap when not in use. Field repairs resulted in the blockers not being replaced for expediency. However, the specifications did not change. Keep the questions coming.

Best to all
Lester (The Elder)

Lester Schumacher

[GBaylor]

Re: Excess coat straps--tucked or rolled?

Yeah,

But Lester, we all know that it takes you at least an hour from "Boots and Saddle" to "Stand to Horse". I think field expediency, the fact that the keepers of the coat straps break, and who has the time to make those really nice looking curly Q's when the enemy's has hit your line of videttes.

I think that common sense rules here and those who've had to saddle quickly and "get the heck out of Dodge" answer the question better than anything else. Such is life of a cavalryman away from the drill field.

John Sweeney

[CJSchumacher]

Re: Excess coat straps--tucked or rolled?

Yeah,

But Lester, we all know that it takes you at least an hour from "Boots and Saddle" to "Stand to Horse". I think field expediency, the fact that the keepers of the coat straps break, and who has the time to make those really nice looking curly Q's when the enemy's has hit your line of videttes.

I think that common sense rules here and those who've had to saddle quickly and "get the heck out of Dodge" answer the question better than anything else. Such is life of a cavalryman away from the drill field.

John Sweeney

Common sense, yes...but I think the Elder was referring to the spiral wrapping when a roll or overcoat is not present. When either are...then its tuck under the ends. Actually, I have all so that the loose ends fall toward the seat from both pommel and cantle...that way, they're basically under your seat or leg at some point.

I too have seen a period photo of the little "circles" on top by rolling the loose ends into the buckles. Waste of time, IMO and should not interfere with mounting or dismouting in any way.

Now the timing involved from "boots and saddles" and "to horse" ["Stand to Horse" is for Reenactors, Sweeney! ;-)] is another story all together and the name "Laster" has been around for MANY years!

Chris

[T.Kern]

Re: Excess coat straps--tucked or rolled?

Mr Kern,

I always keep everything tight on my saddle. I carry very little actually.

I have never once had any problem with my horses comfort as I place it far above my own. The Texas saddle I use for CS has no place for a third strap anyway so it is a mute point. I suspect any discomfort to a horses back is more a result of improper saddling/blanket folding and poor horsemanship than a blanket roll not being held "up high".

Mr. McAllister,

I was not refering to you, just what the army says and since you are riding a civilian saddle (for the most part) the manual would not be speaking on that type of saddle. For comfort of the horse in those times, with a forced march or whatever may come, every little bit helps. I think that is what the army is speaking of when they go to that detail (size of roll- 30" x6", where to place the effects...) , for they already expect their troopers to know how to fold, saddle, and ride. When it comes to reenactors you are prob quite right, though I have seen some ridiculas bedrolls bouncing around out there, who's owners obviously have never read anything.

Since we're talking about packing the saddle, here is one regt. SOP's from early in the war. Notice they wear their haversacks which differs from Congdon's Compendium. Sorry, no mention of coat strap ends.

Orders No. 38 issued from the Headquarters of the 6th Cavalry
[U.S. regular] dated October 24, 1861, state:

"Hereafter the Regiment will turn out for afternoon drill in full marching
order having the great coat rolled and strapped to the pommel and the
blanket to the cantle of the saddle. The canteen and haversack worn on the
left side, the canteen over the haversack, the nose bag on the right side
of the pommel and the lariat and picket pin on the left side of the cantle
of the saddle.

By order of
Wm. H. Emory
Lt. Col. Comdg. 6th Cy."


Sincerely, Todd Kern

[GBaylor]

Re: Excess coat straps--tucked or rolled?

Great Post Todd,

Chris,
I think the reference was to when overcoat and blanket were attached to the saddle. I put my excess coat straps tightly under the part of the strap that is around my bedroll. The one thing about period photographs is that most of them were posed.

John Sweeney

[lesterschumacher]

Re: Excess coat straps--tucked or rolled?

Great Post Todd,

Chris,
I think the reference was to when overcoat and blanket were attached to the saddle. I put my excess coat straps tightly under the part of the strap that is around my bedroll. The one thing about period photographs is that most of them were posed.

John Sweeney

John......Not responding to you specifically Just a general comment and more for Validation.

Chris's post of the Cavalryman on the thread "How to train a horse" ( still on for Viewing) is wonderful....Note the rolled coat straps, The Saber belt WITHOUT the shoulder strap, the saber unslung and the reins held @six inches below the Halter and headstall. Except for being without the shoulder strap, The photo is the perfect example of how to stand at attention when in formation. awaiting the order to prepare to mount. (the cavalryman would also have his carbine And other personal and saddle accouts)

Again a great photo.

Best
Lester (The Elder)

Lester Schumacher