Cavalry shotguns

[Colbi Rosenthal]

Re: Cavalry shotguns

Darryl,

I would think a shotgun would be less effective sawed off,the longer the barrel the more distance you would get from your shot.

[Curt Schmidt]

Re: Cavalry shotguns

Hallo Kameraden!

Although not a cavalryman, I have had a limited amount of experience with live-fire blackpowder shotguns (18th century flint fowlers, CW era S X S, double, 1870's floating pin S X S double, M1887 Winchester lever action, M1897 Winchester and M1898 Marlin pump action, and thanks to an ex-CW pard- Winchester "over and under" trap double.

Indeed, in an "unchoked" barrel, the shorter the barel length, the wider the shot pattern (or lack of pattern..) is as the range increases.
This appears to be more true of a "pre shotgun shell" "do-it-youself" column of powder, shot, and over and under wads- as the "shell" tends to hold the shot together longer and further after it leaves the muzzle.

I have tried 36 inch, 30 inch, and 20 inch barrels. The 36 "reaches" out the tighest, furthest. (I have tried the "sawed off's" on trap's clay pigeons as well...and tested patterns versus range into cardboard sheets to count the holes).
The "Street Howitzer" sprays (but that was the intent- one did not hunt fowl with a "sawed off"... ;-).

Another factor I might mention is the cavalryman's ability to LOAD a "roll your own" muzzleloading single or double barrel shotgun. Mounted must have been a skill (particularly as the barrels got longer...), moving dismounted, and particularly in combat. Even with a charger and a chargeable shot bag.

I envision shotgun use as a "in your face" for one or two devastating shots, and a skedaddle (or punching a hole through a line of infantry...) . Dismounted, the range of federal breechloading carbines and muzzleloading rifles rough to get into effective or even max range, and maintain any exchange, at "sawed off" ranges.

Curt-Heinrich Schmidt
PULL Mess

[JDR]

Re: Cavalry shotguns

Darryl,

I would think a shotgun would be less effective sawed off,the longer the barrel the more distance you would get from your shot.

the range would be the reason i would leave the barrels at their original length. IF i had a pistol or a saber, i would be less concerned about the shotgun being a close quarter weapon. a short barreled shotgun would be less wieldly to load mounted, but that would be the only advantage i can see.

darryl robertson

[ButtermilkRanger]

Re: Cavalry shotguns

I'm inclined to agree the the majority of barrels were probably left long, if for no other reason than what Joe said. I think shotguns were as likely to be weapons brought from home as they were issued. I don't think the average joe blow cavalryman would have had the means to shorten his barrel and if it was happening in armories, then there would have been some type of documentation somewhere (maybe).

I recently found a journal of a Mississippi cavalryman who enlisted in very early '62 but who's unit did not receive arms until very late '62. When they received them, it was through private purchase by the commander. All of the men in the command were issued shotguns and one company was issued sabers. My own gut feeling is that these shotguns were most likely procured as they would be now... by combing the countryside buying up what was available in private homes, gun shops, and general stores. Then, as now, shotguns were used for hunting mostly small game and fowl. In my lifetime of experienced as a hunter with a shotgun, I've found that the only use I've ever had for a sawed off shotgun in the woods was when hunting rabbits in very close quarters. The shorter barrel allows me to swing around in the briars better. On the other hand, the rabbit has to almost be running up my leg to do hit it. For squirrel or duck hunting, the longer the barrel, the better. Why, even in the army, would anyone go through the trouble of sawing off their barrels when it wouldn't make that much difference in the long run anyway?

Another reason I feel barrels were left full length (which of course will vary from gun to gun) is with the lack of originals still seen. Original shotguns are still a dime a dozen on the gun auction sites. How many there are sawed off? There's a reason for that, don't you think?

[ButtermilkRanger]

Re: Cavalry shotguns

Let's go back to the pic Tod posted a moment...

From looking at the position of the sling and where I think the swivel should end up on the shotgun, is is possible or probable that the sling is attached by a ring on the grip part of the stock? I've seen reenactors attach a ring to their shotguns with a footman loop and a ring from a saddle screwed into the stock of a shotgun, but I've always discredited this as a reenactorism. Is it possible that this is what this young man has here?

I'd like some opinions on this one.

[Curt Schmidt]

Re: Cavalry shotguns

Hi All!

"Why, even in the army, would anyone go through the trouble of sawing off their barrels when it wouldn't make that much difference in the long run anyway?"

Later on in Time, the U.S. Army visited shotguns with the Winchester M1897 modified with "sawed-off" 20 inch barrels, heat guard, swivel, and bayonet mount for "service" in the WWI trenches ("trench raiding" and "trench defense").
And again, in Viet Nam, where some soldiers found a shotgun "useful" in the "bush." (I do not recall sawed off's though...). And, the Army had "flechette" rounds available for them.

IMHO, the "sawed off's" with 18 1/2 or 20 inch (whatever) barrels sold by the Italians as "cavalry shotguns" are just an attempt to cheaply and easily take a product from one area to another and market to the CW crowd.
;-)

Pondering the Old Question, do tactics drive firearm development, or does firearm devleopment drive tactics (or both...)? ;-) :-)

Curt-Heinrich Schmidt

[JDR]

Re: Cavalry shotguns

I'm inclined to agree the the majority of barrels were probably left long, if for no other reason than what Joe said. I think shotguns were as likely to be weapons brought from home as they were issued. I don't think the average joe blow cavalryman would have had the means to shorten his barrel and if it was happening in armories, then there would have been some type of documentation somewhere (maybe).

I recently found a journal of a Mississippi cavalryman who enlisted in very early '62 but who's unit did not receive arms until very late '62. When they received them, it was through private purchase by the commander. All of the men in the command were issued shotguns and one company was issued sabers. My own gut feeling is that these shotguns were most likely procured as they would be now... by combing the countryside buying up what was available in private homes, gun shops, and general stores. Then, as now, shotguns were used for hunting mostly small game and fowl. In my lifetime of experienced as a hunter with a shotgun, I've found that the only use I've ever had for a sawed off shotgun in the woods was when hunting rabbits in very close quarters. The shorter barrel allows me to swing around in the briars better. On the other hand, the rabbit has to almost be running up my leg to do hit it. For squirrel or duck hunting, the longer the barrel, the better. Why, even in the army, would anyone go through the trouble of sawing off their barrels when it wouldn't make that much difference in the long run anyway?

Another reason I feel barrels were left full length (which of course will vary from gun to gun) is with the lack of originals still seen. Original shotguns are still a dime a dozen on the gun auction sites. How many there are sawed off? There's a reason for that, don't you think?

"i don't think joe-blow cavalryman have the means to shorten his barrel..." thats a damn good point.

darryl robertson

[T.Kern]

Re: Cavalry shotguns

Let's go back to the pic Tod posted a moment...

From looking at the position of the sling and where I think the swivel should end up on the shotgun, is is possible or probable that the sling is attached by a ring on the grip part of the stock? I've seen reenactors attach a ring to their shotguns with a footman loop and a ring from a saddle screwed into the stock of a shotgun, but I've always discredited this as a reenactorism. Is it possible that this is what this young man has here?

I'd like some opinions on this one.

I believe the footmans loop screwed in is a reenactorism. Like the ever so present link strap hook for a canteen. As for riding with it, across the back it's the most comfortable of any long arm I've carried (and that is a lot of different types).
As for the very interesting info on loading the shotgun and patterns, I might point out there were issued buckshot cartridges but better yet or I believe more common was the use of the buck and ball cartridges in a shotgun.
Sincerely, Todd Kern

[NC5thCav]

Re: Cavalry shotguns

I think Todd makes an excellent point about the ammunition. Everyone keeps talking about range and accuracy problems with shotguns, but if loaded with buck and ball, they would have about the same effectiveness as a smoothbore musket, assuming it was left long. This would leave the trooper with a weapon with about the same range and accurace as an infantryman with a 1842 Springfield or 1822 conversion. Also, substituting bucksot for birdshot would make a big difference. Even being hit with only one pellet could cause a pretty good wound, as opposed to the minor irratation likely to be caused by say a #6 shot. I would much rather be hit with one birdshot than one buckshot! :)

[ButtermilkRanger]

Re: Cavalry shotguns

I believe the footmans loop screwed in is a reenactorism. Like the ever so present link strap hook for a canteen. As for riding with it, across the back it's the most comfortable of any long arm I've carried (and that is a lot of different types).
As for the very interesting info on loading the shotgun and patterns, I might point out there were issued buckshot cartridges but better yet or I believe more common was the use of the buck and ball cartridges in a shotgun.
Sincerely, Todd Kern

Todd,

I'm inclined to agree. I've always thought that the footman loop is a reenactorism. On the other hand, do you have any input as to how this trooper in this period photograph has his carbine sling swivel attached to his shotgun? That's the part that has me intrigued. The only thing that comes to mind for me is the footman stand/ring combo that I've always shrugged off as farb to the core. Maybe I was wrong?

[Cleaveland]

Re: Cavalry shotguns

darrl, david or dan, hope all is well with you,ns way out yonder in the deep deep south.
Anyhow, what about a simple staple and ring, both readily available to the mounted men on both sides. I believe there is a spencer rifle attributed to Wilders brigade with a staple and ring on the wrist of the stock to attach the sling to.

[ButtermilkRanger]

Re: Cavalry shotguns

darrl, david or dan, hope all is well with you,ns way out yonder in the deep deep south.
Anyhow, what about a simple staple and ring, both readily available to the mounted men on both sides. I believe there is a spencer rifle attributed to Wilders brigade with a staple and ring on the wrist of the stock to attach the sling to.

John,

Actually it was me and not Darryl that had the question about attaching the swivel snap to the shotgun, but thanks for the answer anyway. Do you have access to that Spencer by any chance? I'd like to see a pic. Am I correct to assume that the ring and staple were on the side of the stock wrist and not the bottom? I know that some carbines had a ring on the bottom of the weapon instead of the side like we see traditionally. Either way, it's good information and not something I'd thought of before.

[Jimmayo]

Re: Cavalry shotguns

Had the pleasure of hunting one of Gen. Barringer's 1864 Cav. winter camp around Petersburg. Can't remember finding any CS shotgun slugs. Maybe a few round balls but lots of Richmond Sharp bullets. These bullets were being made by the CS for the sharpes carbines. They were by far the most prevelant bullet found. Not many C buttons found either. Lots of NC sun burst and block I and A's.

[Curt Schmidt]

Re: Cavalry shotguns

Hallo Kamerad!

"Am I correct to assume that the ring and staple were on the side of the stock wrist and not the bottom? I know that some carbines had a ring on the bottom of the weapon instead of the side like we see traditionally."

I don't know about the Wilder's Brigade Spencer Rifle, but...

The M1860 Spencer Carbine was a little strange (as was the Burnside). It had the saddle ring and bar mounted to the side of the wrist and the rear of the receiver. But, it also had a sling swivel screwed in under the butt stock a few inches from the toe (the same as on the Spencer Rifle, the rifle having the additional upper swivel on the middle barrel band.)

Rings on the bottom types: US and British Greenes, Jenks-Merrill, some Lindners, Merrills).

I would be interested in the "Wilder" specimen...

Curt-Heinrich Schmidt

[Tenth Illinois Company H]

Re: Cavalry shotguns

I would be looking to carry a shotgun too. Where to find (repro) or orginal from that time. Any ideas?