Cavalry shotguns

[Mike Nickerson]

Re: Cavalry shotguns

http://www.gunbroker.com/ do a search for "Percussion Double Barrel Shotgun" you are most likey looking for a 16 - 10 ga. pre-war import.

Mike Nickerson

[fortdonelsonrelics]

Re: Cavalry shotguns

darrl, david or dan, hope all is well with you,ns way out yonder in the deep deep south.
Anyhow, what about a simple staple and ring, both readily available to the mounted men on both sides. I believe there is a spencer rifle attributed to Wilders brigade with a staple and ring on the wrist of the stock to attach the sling to.

The Spencer your speaking of I believe is in "Blue Lighting" it was a field modification. Bob Becker from Covington, Ga, who has probably the largest collection of I'd Wilder's Spencers, has only seen a couple of this type.

John Walsh

[W. K. Osman]

CS cavalry shotgun - captured Baton Rouge

Here is a photo of the back half of a DB shotgun captured on 5 August 1862 outside Baton Rouge near the Greenwell Springs Road by Paleman J. Smally, Co. C, 4th Wisconsin Cavalry. He left a nice inscription on the stock, and the trophy came from his grandson in Minneapolis many years ago. Damage to the forend was done when the gun was smashed against a tree, breaking off the barrel and tearing out the barrel key. The back action lock plates are engraved "Perkins". Stephen Osman

[Linkstrap]

Re: Cavalry shotguns-image, early eastern theater

Great image. Any ideas on whether the sling is Confederate, civilian or maybe English? Also, how is the sling hooked to the shotgun? Inquiring minds want to know.

Larry, this could perhaps be one possible answer to your question, "how is the sling hooked to the shotgun?"

The positioning looks to be about right for where that sling in the picture is attached.

http://americana.ha.com/common/view_item.php?Sale_No=663&Lot_No=72245

[AZReenactor]

Re: Cavalry shotguns

how much more or less effective would a sawed off shotgun be? obviously full length, and sawed off barrels would each have their own advantages. which configuration would be best suited to the job of the garden variety cavalryman?

myself, i believe i would choose to leave my barrels full length. whatcha think ya'll might do?

darryl robertson

Actually, I would hope the question in this community is "what did they do?"

[Outrider]

Re: Cavalry shotguns

Troy, I think you may have took Darryl's question the wrong way.

He knows the questions this community needs to ask I assure you. Personally I see nothing wrong with a little speculation as to how one might handle a given situation or problem after all those boys learned by trial and error just like we do now.

For me I believe that if shotguns in general are under-represented then of those, sawed-off shotguns are way overepresented in this hobby.....like pistols.

but thats just my own humble opinion.

[csabugler]

Re: Cavalry shotguns

Troy, I agree with the other Patrick. Back on 08/27/04 When Darryl posed that question I interpreted that as "based upon your research and the discussion here, whatcha think ya'll might do?" I believe the research and discussion included"what did they do" by reference and subject matter.
Patrick

[Provost]

Re: Cavalry shotguns

I bought a period shotgun last year on GunsAmerica.com, noting that it had shorter barrels. Upon receipt and close examination, it was clear that the barrels had been shortened, (possibly for use as a coach gun, perhaps CW ) and the ramrod was incorrect - and there was no front sight. One hammer had been replaced ( with a period correct replacement ) and this is more common with sidehammer shotguns than you would expect.

I haven't fired it because the nipples are badly peened, and I have been thinking of replacing them with Enfield nipples - a plausible period replacement, but I fear that heat may be required to remove the old ones, and that of course brings materials safety issues to the forefront.

I also examined a period shotgun at an event last year which had a fine, sturdy saddle ring and bar with matching patina to the piece overall, but was unable to determine whether it was manufactured with the ring, or it was added later. If it was an aftermarket replacement, the work was excellent.

It is important to understand that folks have been customizing weapons for special purposes for centuries, so a modified weapon - either by arsenal or individual - can be period correct even if it is unusual. I have an original 1861 Springfield ( butt plate stamped Co. B Ill Vol ) in which the nose cap has been replaced with a brass Enfield cap. Not just the cap was replaced, but upon close examination, it can be seen that a couple of inches of the forestock behind the nose cap had also been replaced. The workmanship was so good that only the change in grain pattern gives it away.

As the Deputy Provost for the 9th Battalion, 1st Division, ANV, I also have safety responsibilities, so use of double barrels on the field naturally causes me a bit of worry. Last year I caught a couple of youngsters loading sidehammer cartridge shotgun shells with black powder and toilet paper wads. They claimed "the public" probably wouldn't notice them breaking open the actions and shoving modern plastic shells in. They seemed genuinely surprised when I ordered the weapons in question to be locked in their vehicles not to return to my camp for any reason.

Lacking any specific ANV regulations regarding shotguns, I permit them on the field as long as they are thoroughly inspected and then only loaded consistent with acceptable rifle musket muzzleloading practices. It is critical that your loading procedure be such that there is no possibility of double-charging one barrel. One such technique would be, after charging the first barrel, fold the empty cartridge paper in half and hang it over the side of the loaded barrel, half in, and half out. This "flags" that barrel as already loaded. After loading the second barrel, remove the paper flag from the other and you have reasonable assurance that each barrel has a single charge.

Properly maintained, I believe original period shotguns can be safely used on the battlefield, utilizing light loads of perhaps 20-25 grains of FF and no wad of any kind. It is important to understand that shotgun barrels are generally Damascus steel and are much thinner than rifle musket barrels. They are easy to dent, causing a constriction which may increase the bore pressure.

To date, I know of no modern reproductions which come even close to accurately replicating the hundreds of authentic period pieces I have examined. The good news is, excellent period correct pieces are available at quite reasonable prices ( expect to pay around $500 and up for one with good nipples, strong springs, reliable half-cock, original matching locks, and ramrod. The better ones have platinum blow-out plugs on the sides of the chambers - easy to spot as a silver dot about the size of a pea. There's a sizable fraternity of bird hunters out there that still hunt with them.

Yours in Service,

Lt. Jim Peden
Deputy Provost, 9th Battalion, ANV

[Sccavtrooper]

Re: Cavalry shotguns

i just saw a shotgun sold at auction that was confedearte and even had a ring for attachement on carbine sling. i will scan and post a pic when i can

[Linkstrap]

Re: Cavalry shotguns

Do you mean this one? (If so, this is the same shotgun that I referred to in my post above).

Just sold at Heritage Auctions, http://americana.ha.com/common/view_...3&Lot_No=72245

[csabugler]

Re: Cavalry shotguns

just out of curiosity, Anybodyknow what that shotgun sold for? The add said something about an "estimated $2000-$3000"
Patrick

[T.Kern]

Re: Cavalry shotguns

From my research, and this is an old topic rehashing the same info, shotguns were common, more so early in the war, but some still around at the end. Most were left long as shorting them cut effective range. A lot of evidence points to them being carried with a gun sling across the back but there are examples of carbine type slings being used as well. I think alot of the cut downs, with either shotguns or muskets, are done after the war for sporting pieces. Damascus barrels were a post war innovation, most period guns I've seen were not Damascus. When I worked in museums I handled several captured shotguns with good provenance that were as described above, one comes to mind from Ashby's cav.

Sincerely, Todd Kern

I bought a period shotgun last year on GunsAmerica.com, noting that it had shorter barrels. Upon receipt and close examination, it was clear that the barrels had been shortened, (possibly for use as a coach gun, perhaps CW ) and the ramrod was incorrect - and there was no front sight. One hammer had been replaced ( with a period correct replacement ) and this is more common with sidehammer shotguns than you would expect.

I haven't fired it because the nipples are badly peened, and I have been thinking of replacing them with Enfield nipples - a plausible period replacement, but I fear that heat may be required to remove the old ones, and that of course brings materials safety issues to the forefront.

I also examined a period shotgun at an event last year which had a fine, sturdy saddle ring and bar with matching patina to the piece overall, but was unable to determine whether it was manufactured with the ring, or it was added later. If it was an aftermarket replacement, the work was excellent.

It is important to understand that folks have been customizing weapons for special purposes for centuries, so a modified weapon - either by arsenal or individual - can be period correct even if it is unusual. I have an original 1861 Springfield ( butt plate stamped Co. B Ill Vol ) in which the nose cap has been replaced with a brass Enfield cap. Not just the cap was replaced, but upon close examination, it can be seen that a couple of inches of the forestock behind the nose cap had also been replaced. The workmanship was so good that only the change in grain pattern gives it away.

As the Deputy Provost for the 9th Battalion, 1st Division, ANV, I also have safety responsibilities, so use of double barrels on the field naturally causes me a bit of worry. Last year I caught a couple of youngsters loading sidehammer cartridge shotgun shells with black powder and toilet paper wads. They claimed "the public" probably wouldn't notice them breaking open the actions and shoving modern plastic shells in. They seemed genuinely surprised when I ordered the weapons in question to be locked in their vehicles not to return to my camp for any reason.

Lacking any specific ANV regulations regarding shotguns, I permit them on the field as long as they are thoroughly inspected and then only loaded consistent with acceptable rifle musket muzzleloading practices. It is critical that your loading procedure be such that there is no possibility of double-charging one barrel. One such technique would be, after charging the first barrel, fold the empty cartridge paper in half and hang it over the side of the loaded barrel, half in, and half out. This "flags" that barrel as already loaded. After loading the second barrel, remove the paper flag from the other and you have reasonable assurance that each barrel has a single charge.

Properly maintained, I believe original period shotguns can be safely used on the battlefield, utilizing light loads of perhaps 20-25 grains of FF and no wad of any kind. It is important to understand that shotgun barrels are generally Damascus steel and are much thinner than rifle musket barrels. They are easy to dent, causing a constriction which may increase the bore pressure.

To date, I know of no modern reproductions which come even close to accurately replicating the hundreds of authentic period pieces I have examined. The good news is, excellent period correct pieces are available at quite reasonable prices ( expect to pay around $500 and up for one with good nipples, strong springs, reliable half-cock, original matching locks, and ramrod. The better ones have platinum blow-out plugs on the sides of the chambers - easy to spot as a silver dot about the size of a pea. There's a sizable fraternity of bird hunters out there that still hunt with them.

Yours in Service,

Lt. Jim Peden
Deputy Provost, 9th Battalion, ANV

[FlaCpl.]

Re: Cavalry shotguns

In my humble opinion, cavarly personel (or for that matter anyone) should equip themselves with whatever their unit historically was armed with. If the documentation isn't there, go witwhatever time and theater dictate.
Cpl. Walter Cook
4th Florida Regiment of Infantry Company G.

[8thmocav]

Re: Cavalry shotguns

Wow, great info everyone! I'm glad to see this post, as I was considering these questions myself as I'm looking to get into cavalry (starting with dismounted until budget allows horses!)

I currently own a nice a Enfield (3 band), and was considering selling it to get a carbine. But is sounds like I'd be fine with it.

My question is, (as I try to envision riding with it) how was it handled on horseback? Surely it was fired off horseback (with one is the squad holding the other horses, etc). But how did they ride with such an unwieldy weapon. Did they just extend the sling?

Please educate me...

Brent Harty
8thmocav@gmail.com

[KyCavMajor]

Re: Cavalry shotguns

Wow, great info everyone! I'm glad to see this post, as I was considering these questions myself as I'm looking to get into cavalry (starting with dismounted until budget allows horses!)

I currently own a nice a Enfield (3 band), and was considering selling it to get a carbine. But is sounds like I'd be fine with it.

My question is, (as I try to envision riding with it) how was it handled on horseback? Surely it was fired off horseback (with one is the squad holding the other horses, etc). But how did they ride with such an unwieldy weapon. Did they just extend the sling?

Please educate me...

Brent Harty
8thmocav@gmail.com

Brent,
The enfield is a fine weapon, but was seldom fired off horse back, as you surmised it is unwieldy in that.
When I carry a firearm of that length I just sling it over my shoulder.