Two Pistols

[AZFarrier]

A friend sent me this picture. I beleve he scanned it, and I don't know where he got it from. If any one his info on this trooper please speak up. I think this is interesting because you hardly ever hear of US Cavalry carrying more then 1 pistol. It also looks like he's sporting 2 cap boxes.

Andy Miller
1st CAL Cav
Arizona Rangers

[Mike Nickerson]

Re: Two Pistols

I have no direct knowledge of it's origin. However, the pic brings up the well worn discussion of the use of "photo props" in studio pictures.

Mike Nickerson

[MickCole]

Re: Two Pistols

According to family tradition, Captain Bill Strong, my second cousin, a few times removed, Company K, 14th KY Cav (Union), carried two Colt .44's. There is a picture of him at http://www.breathittcounty.com/StrongsDeath.html showing him holding a pair of Colts. It's obviously a studio photo, but the pair of revolvers are consistent with family tradition.
There is enough resemblence between the uniforms to make me wonder whether the corporal in the photo being discussed is also from a KY unit.
Mick Cole
SUVCW, SCV

[brown]

Capt Strong post-war

Interesting account of Capt Strong's post-war life. Someone should start a thread on the "Red-Strings."

As for the firearms in the photo: could family tradition be based on that photograph?

Thanks for posting.

[Jimmayo]

Re: Two Pistols

A great book to read is "Johnny Reb and Billy Yank" by Alexander Hunter. He was in the 17 Va. Inf until just after Fredricksburg when he joined Company H of the 4th Va. Cav. He talks alot about fighting in the Cavalry and I believe carrying two pistols along with other weapons at different times. He was captured at least 3 times during the war, lost his horse and is buried in the Confederate section of Arlington Cemetery. This is a Neal published book and the original edition will cost you plenty but it has been reprinted. Below is one of those pistols he talked about carrying.

[hardeeflag]

Re: Two Pistols

A pin fire. I wonder how hard it was to get cartidges?

[AZFarrier]

Re: Two Pistols

Starting off reenacting years ago, I rode CS. It was well understood that every one load up on pistols that way you can keep on hitting the US Flanks. Now for a CS Trooper in the Trans-Mississippi and other places I think that would be appropriate BUT doing US Cav I felt that they were not issued multiple pistols, We'll I guess I'm wrong. Now between the time I origonally posted this thread Troy Groves ( AZReenactor) sent me some info on the battle of Apache Pass in July 1862.

This passage comes from the accounts of Captain John Cremony in his book written in 1868 titled Life among the Apaches.

The wagons were ordered to be packed; every manwas supplied with ammunition and posted to the best advantage; proper attention was paid to my wounded sergeant ant the camp arranged in such a manner as to ensure a warm reception to a large body of savages. we remained on the qui vive until one o'clock a.m., when to my extreme surprise and sincere gratification we were joined by John Teal, who was supposed to have been killed, (the trooper was seperated the day before during a running scrp with Apaches). He brought with him his saddle, blanket, saber and pistols, having lost his horse and spurs.

The troopers account of his exploits was written after this passage. You can find it at http://www.discoverseaz.com/History/ApachePass.html

His account came staright out of a hollywood western/

Andy Miller
1st CAL CAv
Arizona Rangers

[Mike Nickerson]

Re: Two Pistols

Starting off reenacting years ago, I rode CS. It was well understood that every one load up on pistols that way you can keep on hitting the US Flanks.

Well understood by whom?

We'll I guess I'm wrong. Now between the time I origonally posted this thread Troy Groves ( AZReenactor) sent me some info on the battle of Apache Pass in July 1862.

Andy, the number one rule of research is one of anything doesn't make a norm! Consider a modern example:

An US Ranger squad is hit hard by a IED in Iraq, they are medi-vac to a hospital. Their CO orders Pvt. Smith to load their weapons onto a humvee. In doing so a CNN photographer snaps a shot of Pvt. Smith with 6 M-16s and 6 9mm autos. Now fast forward 150 years, it's the year 2156, a history buff studying ancient "CD records" finds a picture of the most heavily armed soldier of all time. At the next "Gulf War" reenactment, he is loaded for bear and has the photo to backup his research!

The ordnance returns of the vast majority of both Federal and Confederate Cavalry units simply do not add up to enough revolvers for 1 per, let alone multiples. Are there exceptions: yes. Do we fill our ranks with men (and women) portraying an exception: depends on what events you are going to.

If I have missed your point and I’m preaching to the choir, Andy I apologize.

Mike Nickerson

[KyCavMajor]

Re: Two Pistols

According to family tradition, Captain Bill Strong, my second cousin, a few times removed, Company K, 14th KY Cav (Union), carried two Colt .44's. There is a picture of him at http://www.breathittcounty.com/StrongsDeath.html showing him holding a pair of Colts. It's obviously a studio photo, but the pair of revolvers are consistent with family tradition.
There is enough resemblence between the uniforms to make me wonder whether the corporal in the photo being discussed is also from a KY unit.
Mick Cole
SUVCW, SCV

Mr. Cole,
I have been to Frankfort KY to research Kentucky Volunteer Cavalry several times over he last decade and a half. The Military archives is a treasure trove. I hope to get back there soon, it has been several years since my last opportunity.
Those archives contain many interesting tidbits such as letters to Regimental Commanders and political leaders demanding favorite sons be promoted etcetera...
I have found in reading some of those letters that in many Kentucky Regiments the unusual isn't well, all that unusual.

In researching a Corporal in the Seventh KY US for a family I was able to determine that this Corporal carried a sawed of shotgun throughout the war. The family still has the weapon and several of his letters. He obtained it shortly after mustering in when the unit was delayed in obtaining long arms and kept it till the end. He carried in the assault of the fort at Columbus GA (actually across the river at Girard AL.) on Easter of 1865. He was also had two Colt Navy revolvers, one was probably issued, the other, I could not ascertain where he obtained it. He did mention in a letter that he choose it to match the other he already had for commonality of ammunition and parts, that letter was dated in 1863 and when exactly he obtained the second revolver is unclear, by his tone of that letter it seemed he had carried it for a while previously. It also indicates he perhaps had a choice of differnt weapons, I only wish he had given more detail.

This is one example that I can clearly remember, there were others. This was based on his letters, and he constantly mentions his weapons throughout the war. His descendants intended to write a book, but nothing ever came of it as far as I know. His great, great, great, grandson attempted to ride with us, but found he wasn't up to it.

Having said all of that, on must be very careful of “Photographer's Props” and one indication is that the subject in this picture is not wearing a belt. It lends more credence to the likelihood of him having actually carried two revolvers if he displayed a practical way of carrying them, if he had two holsters on his belt arranged in a way that would make sense. I have attached a picture of a LA. Confederate trooper carrying two revolvers in a way that very much suggests they were NOT props. It seems to me, although it is logical conjecture, that in staged photos the photographer, if using props, usually just handed them to the subject sans accouterments. This picture resides in the Cabildo Museum on Jackson Square in New Orleans. If you examine the picture closely, he has on the two piece front boots we so often label as “Farb” these days.
The point of all this is that while the photograph is likely staged with prop weapons, there remains the possibility that it is not, more research might very well reveal he did in fact carry two side arms. I encourage the effort; it may prove very rewarding, even if the results are not what you hope for. I can almost guarantee the search will reveal some facts that are very interesting and fly in the face of convention. There is no concrete, iconic cavalry trooper.


With Regards
Tod Lane

[MickCole]

Re: Two Pistols

Captain Strog's photo definitely has a studio look. On the other hand, it is stated in the book "At Rest Among Thorns: The Story Of Captain Bill Strong,"As Told By Strong Family Descendants, that when then-Corporal Strong deserted the 6th KY Cav prior to being commissioned in the 14th KY Cav, he took with him a carbine and a pair of revolvers.
As Captain Strong's company was essentially a home guard unit, he and his men likely carried whatever they got ttheir hands on.
Mick Cole

[AZFarrier]

Re: Two Pistols

From alot of the books I read about Trans Mississippi CS Cavalry there were quite a few of them that through away their sabers or just picked up an extra pistol or two and used them in stead. What we have out here in the west is Col Carltons orders on what his troops were to be issued for the defence of the west. They were issued 1 Sharps Carbine 1852 or 1859, 1 Navy colt, and 1 M1840 Dragoon Saber. Because of his orders I have always carried 1 pistol since I started up the 1st CAL Cav.

Andy Miller
1st CAL Cav
Arizona Rangers

[paul9thky]

Re: Two Pistols

Attached is a picture of Jeremiah Sullivan (Right) and an unknown trooper, both of the 2nd Michigan Cavalry USA. If you notice both have two colts tucked in their belts. These could very well have been props but if they were then the photographer kept an awful lot of colts on hand for props.

The second photo is of Wesley Procrop Company G, 5th Illinois Volunteer Cavalry USA. Once again 2 colts tucked in the belt, yet their is still a possibility they are props

[csabugler]

Re: Two Pistols

You know, it just amazes me that people keep posting on this "authentic Forum" about multiple pistols and paint horses and such in spite of the countless ordnance reports and prior discussions contained here-in that lead someone who is interested in authenticity to discard such documents. Are there exceptions to the beliefs we embrace? Certainly! But when people post these "studio" pictures with Jaguar pants and multiple revolvers are they offering topics of discussion or looking for justification for their desired "Josey Wales" impressions?
A while back, I think befor the big crash, there was a discussion about the quality of this forum. To be honest, in my 17 years in the authentic side of the hobby, I am fairly new to this forum. Am I missing something here? What do you long term veterans of this site think?
Patrick

[KyCavMajor]

Re: Two Pistols

Attached is a picture of Jeremiah Sullivan (Right) and an unknown trooper, both of the 2nd Michigan Cavalry USA. If you notice both have two colts tucked in their belts. These could very well have been props but if they were then the photographer kept an awful lot of colts on hand for props.

The second photo is of Wesley Procrop Company G, 5th Illinois Volunteer Cavalry USA. Once again 2 colts tucked in the belt, yet their is still a possibility they are props

Paul,
I am pretty sure these are in fact props, perhaps the photographers, or perhaps another possibility is that two more troopers waiting to have their pictures taken handed their pards an extra weapon to pose with.
It is obvious tey have no practicle way to carry them.

[KyCavMajor]

Re: Two Pistols

You know, it just amazes me that people keep posting on this "authentic Forum" about multiple pistols and paint horses and such in spite of the countless ordnance reports and prior discussions contained here-in that lead someone who is interested in authenticity to discard such documents. Are there exceptions to the beliefs we embrace? Certainly! But when people post these "studio" pictures with Jaguar pants and multiple revolvers are they offering topics of discussion or looking for justification for their desired "Josey Wales" impressions?
A while back, I think befor the big crash, there was a discussion about the quality of this forum. To be honest, in my 17 years in the authentic side of the hobby, I am fairly new to this forum. Am I missing something here? What do you long term veterans of this site think?
Patrick

Not to start a flame war here, but you asked.
I have been here for a few years, I think re-examination of "what we think to be true" never hurts. If you find it tedious you need not participate.
I know Paul personly, he is on the quest to find authenticity as we all are. We are all at different points along that road, and sometimes we need to ask directions.
I feel like when we start with the "Jaguar Pants" arguement we come off as the "Stitch Nazis" that we aren't. Can we not stand a little questioning of our "known universe" from time to time? Is the final definition of our world written?
By the way, just so you know, young Paul spent a few cold nights sleeping, one of them in the rain, with me sans tent at Perryville. With out much complaint, well except when my horse bit his ankle...
As I recall he carries but one revolver and a Enfield Rifle that he is "defarbing". He rides in a Columbus Depot Jacket, from a reputable maker, an altogether under represented article of clothing in the Cavalry ranks, and was very proud of his upgrade from skinner row hat to good Kepi this summer.
Is Paul to to be labeled a "Josey Wales" for posting a picture and stating an opinion? I encouraged Paul to to use this Forum to learn, I hope I didn't mislead the lad. I WISH I had the hard start Paul does when I was his age.