Jaguar-Skin Trousers

[D F Smith Historic]

Re: Jaguar-Skin Trousers

Hi All,

Larry, that is interesting about the saddle of Gen Santa Ana. I would love to see that!

On another note. I have been reading John Ceremony’s book "Life among the Apache" published 1868.

Ceremony was the Capt in charge of B Company 2nd California Cavalry. He served in Arizona & New Mexico during the 1861-66 time periods.

In the book he notes the Apache in Arizona hunted various animals, including Jaguars, and other big cats.

I never knew the Jaguar ranged into southern Arizona. Amazing

Don S

[Rob Weaver]

Re: Jaguar-Skin Trousers

Hi All,

Larry, that is interesting about the saddle of Gen Santa Ana. I would love to see that!

On another note. I have been reading John Ceremony’s book "Life among the Apache" published 1868.

Ceremony was the Capt in charge of B Company 2nd California Cavalry. He served in Arizona & New Mexico during the 1861-66 time periods.

In the book he notes the Apache in Arizona hunted various animals, including Jaguars, and other big cats.

I never knew the Jaguar ranged into southern Arizona. Amazing

Don S

I thought I was the only person on eath who'd read this book! It's also the only place I've ever seen reference to infamtry carrying their shoulder arms in gun cases. Apparently on patrol to keep them clean as well! That brought howls of derision when I mentioned in 6-8 months ago.

[D F Smith Historic]

Re: Jaguar-Skin Trousers

Hi Rob,

It is a GREAT book for folks to learn what happened in the far west during the period. It is interesting about the rifle case. Unless one has been out here in Arizona & New Mexico, it is hard to understand why a soldier would use a cloth cover on his rifle to keep it in good shape.

All I can say is that folks have to read this book to get a good perspective on the California Volunteer Soldier of the California Column, & what they went through in their contribution daring the war, keeping the South from ever coming near to California and the Gold fields in the Sierra Nevada. As well as the monumental task along side Colorado & New Mexico troops in subduing the most vicious hostile bands of Apache and Navajo who were at war with the settlers in the region.


These men accomplished in 4 years what the Regular Army did in 20 years earning the praise of the Chief of Staff of the US Army in 1862.


Also in the book is refrences to the rolling & smoking of Cigarettos A common item in the far west

All the best

Don S

[tmdreb]

Re: Jaguar-Skin Trousers

Rifle covers show up in illustrations and accounts of early Texas as well. Didn't Richard Taylor smoke cigarettes as well?

One of the greatest faults of the flawed "PEC" concept is that a few easterners behind their keyboards are allowed to determine what is "PEC" for everyone.

[D F Smith Historic]

Re: Jaguar-Skin Trousers

Hi Phil,

Yep, Taylor is noted as smoking cigarettes during the valley campaign of 1862, Also Allen Redwood the artist and member of the Richmond Howitzers drew a picture of a "Pelican officer" who has a cigarette in his hand.

As far a few eastern folks determining what PEC is or isn't. Folks only let other tell them what to do. Instead of honestly asking "is the particular PEC rule truly correct for the scenario or event being portrayed?"

One of the beauties of being out west of the Mississippi, is there is so much to portray accurately and from good sources to boot that challenge and grow our notions of what is correct and common out here......Enter the Jaguar Chaps and other distinctly Western items ;)


Don

[ButtermilkRanger]

Re: Jaguar-Skin Trousers

Hi All,

Larry, that is interesting about the saddle of Gen Santa Ana. I would love to see that!

In the book he notes the Apache in Arizona hunted various animals, including Jaguars, and other big cats.

I never knew the Jaguar ranged into southern Arizona. Amazing

Don S

Don,

The saddle is interesting, as is the vest in question. As for the big cats in Arizona, I've done quite a lot of research on that as well (another interest of mine) and there are many documented accounts of jaguars in northern Mexico, Arizona, New Mexico and even West Texas as late as the early 20th Century. The last confirmed jaguar sighting in New Mexico was in 1963 and the last in Arizona was in 1998, I believe.

That being said, I believe it was highly likely that the jag skin holsters and chaps worn by the 3rd Texas cavalryman in question had as much likelihood of being actual skin as a print.

And, for the record, I agree 100% with the statement about a few determining what was PEC for us all. The simple truth is, there were a wide range of differences in different regions.

[MustangGray]

Re: Jaguar-Skin Trousers

I know I'm straying a bit but here's a link to SA's saddle...

http://tides.sfasu.edu/ME18/SMMGroup005.php?culture=3&chrono=5&index=0

We had a discussion on this fellow's jaguar skin overalls here a few years back and I was slammed for being a farb just for discussing it. Glad to see someone has made headway in discussing such things!

Sincerely,
Scott McMahon

[D F Smith Historic]

Re: Jaguar-Skin Trousers

I know I'm straying a bit but here's a link to SA's saddle...

http://tides.sfasu.edu/ME18/SMMGroup005.php?culture=3&chrono=5&index=0

We had a discussion on this fellow's jaguar skin overalls here a few years back and I was slammed for being a farb just for discussing it. Glad to see someone has made headway in discussing such things!

Sincerely,
Scott McMahon

Hi All,

Scott, Thank you for the link to the saddle. What a nice piece of work!

Discussing these things is good for the hobby over all, and keeps it from becoming too "Currier & Ives".

I am sorry folks went after you and others for discussing the Jaguar chaps in the past. It unfortunately shows their ignorance.

I am glad that it is more acceptable now to discuss the items that are a little differnt.


All the best

Don S

[D F Smith Historic]

Re: Jaguar-Skin Trousers

Don,

The saddle is interesting, as is the vest in question. As for the big cats in Arizona, I've done quite a lot of research on that as well (another interest of mine) and there are many documented accounts of jaguars in northern Mexico, Arizona, New Mexico and even West Texas as late as the early 20th Century. The last confirmed jaguar sighting in New Mexico was in 1963 and the last in Arizona was in 1998, I believe.

That being said, I believe it was highly likely that the jag skin holsters and chaps worn by the 3rd Texas cavalryman in question had as much likelihood of being actual skin as a print.

And, for the record, I agree 100% with the statement about a few determining what was PEC for us all. The simple truth is, there were a wide range of differences in different regions.

Hi Larry,

Wow! I had no idea that the Jaguars had been seen that late. I had assumed they had totally stopped being seen out here at the turn into the 20th Century. I do remember something in the news about the Jaguar here in AZ in 1998. It made the news in California where I was living at the time

Recently the Mexican Gray Wolf (another animal seen during the period) population has been take off the endangered species list. Maybe the Jaguars range will come back to N America eventually?

I have grown up out here hiking and seeing Mountain Lion prints & hearing them scream in the hills. Not an animal to mess with. Biggest paw print I saw hiking was in the upper Matilaha wilderness behind Santa Barbara Ca. The print was about 7 1/2" across, and fairly fresh. Never saw the cat.

Don S

[Curt Schmidt]

Re: Jaguar-Skin Trousers

Hallo!

Leave them alone and they'll come home...

Yes, although not jaguars, mountain lions are also making a slow comeback here in the "East," however it appears it is the public policy of departments of natural resources to deny it.

Curt

[Rev]

Re: Jaguar-Skin Trousers

As one wildlife office I knew growing up in Arkansas put it, 'No. we don't have panthers around here anymore. We have pumas.'

This stated after seeing a jersey cow and calf that had been mauled and partially eaten by 'the biggest bobcat in the state.'

[Malingerer]

Re: Jaguar-Skin Trousers

Panthers, Pumas, Painters, Mountain Lions, etc.. are the 'bigfoot' or 'yeti' of the east. I can tell you that, as a former field Biologist with nearly twenty years of experience in the backcountry of the southern Appalachians, I have been on the receiving end of countless anecdotes about mountain lion sightings and yet I have never seen one shred of evidence to suggest that any of these sightings has real credence. Panthers, like any other organism need a substantial population to maintain genetic viability - and there simply is no source population here in the east for that to occur (with the exception of south Florida - and even there, the populatrion has become so small that inbreeding has become a real threat to their genetic health). I, for one, would love to see a return of panthers to the wilds of the east but we just dont have enough wilderness here (maybe northern Maine) to maintain a viable population. But, like the search for the Ivory-billed Woodpecker - hope springs eternal.

[Rev]

Re: Jaguar-Skin Trousers

Peter, not to rain on your credentials. But, I have treed and, ahem, 'secured' two panthers in Arkansas back in the early eighties. This was after we turned Plott hounds loose on the track from incidents involving livestock. And, the local wildlife officer was right there. Steve's still around and confirms it. One of them as black, a female, and the other tawny, a male. Somewhere in my father's house is a shoe box with photographs of each of them.

I've also seen one here in Lower Alabama; and a slew of them when I lived in the southwest-but that is too be expected.

I agree, though, that the population is in real danger from inbreeding. They are a marvelous animal. But, what they can do to a dog holding them at bay is terrifying.

I was very blessed to see a jaguar in the wild in Honduras. It was an amazing five or ten minutes. They are a magnificent animal.

[Curt Schmidt]

Re: Jaguar-Skin Trousers

Hallo!

From Virginia a bit ago...


Curt

[Malingerer]

Re: Jaguar-Skin Trousers

Well Lawrence, that must have been a pretty cool experience - both the panther treeing and the jaguar sighting, I'd say if any animal was capable of treeing panthers it would definitely be a Plott Hound (my local pride is showing - the breed originated here in western North Carolina). I've seen photos from the web of other panther sightings here in the east but we've always chalked it up to the release of exotic pets. While its true that the scientific establishment of a viable population of panthers east of the Mississippi would be an unmitigated nighmare for land mangement agencies (lots of new land management issues surrounding habitat for endangered species that require lots of acreage), nonetheless, we've (biologists) been looking hard for years for solid evidence of a self-maintaining population and it just isnt there so far. But... I would dearly love to be wrong about that.
Curt... do you know the story behind the photo?