Saber on the Saddle...

[FTrooper]

Other Methods

Two other methods other than just using the sabre belt slings (which does work) includes using a pair of knapsack overcoat straps (basically that was when the army did in 1885) AND the much jaded "Stuart Attachment" most common in the 1885 period. This is the brass hook with the to straps connected to it. JEB Stuart patented this in 1859 and almost immediately the Ordnance Department bought the pattern and produced 500 for "issue as requested". Another 10,000 were made in 1864 for issue with the Mann's Equipments and show up plentifully in the returns of REGULAR Cavalry units on the frontier from 1866-1870 (we have an original 1859 style dug AT fort McKavett).

SO...here is part two...I actually have acquired via ebay an almost UNISSUED M1859 Stuart Attachment Brass hook (this one has the "locking bar" on it and would love to find a person who works in thick sheet brass to reproduce them! As well as what ever happened to the stamps that one no deceased leather worker was using to make Mann's Patent equipment?

Most Respectfully,
Chris Fischer
F-Troop
&
Fort McKavett SHS

[glennlmeek]

Re: Saber on the Saddle...

The ARMY Museum has a pair of Saber straps from the CW era. They are simply two leather straps one londer than the other with saber snaps on each end to attach to the rongs on the front and rear of the saddle.

Regards
Glenn

[FTrooper]

Re: Saber on the Saddle...

NICE!

Chris Fischer
F-Troop
&
Fort McKavett SHS

[T.Kern]

Re: Saber on the Saddle...

The ARMY Museum has a pair of Saber straps from the CW era. They are simply two leather straps one londer than the other with saber snaps on each end to attach to the rongs on the front and rear of the saddle.

Regards
Glenn

First, to say a couple leather straps hanging from a 150 year old saddle does not mean they were there then. Straps with snaps were not issued. As we know from so many dealers books , lots of things get added to saddles to enhance the story. Nor does what some curator say, remember the "cavalrymen rode with one spur" non sense from the MOC?
What we have to consider is what was common. Otherwise we end up with a lot of jaguar skin pants! What was most common from issues, first hand accounts, and illustrations is that the sabre was worn on the belt! I really don't want to have to waste my day pulling up reports, accounts and images of such but the predominate number show / mention sabres on belts. Heck, sabres were issued with equal number of sword belts, look at any receipts. While it was occasionally done, just as occasionally some trooper has two pistols, it is the exception to the rule. Furthermore, as interpretive historians it is our duty not to show the abnormality as normal just because we are too lazy to carry it proper as intended.
Todd Kern

[paul9thky]

Re: Saber on the Saddle...

Wow! Great thread!

I was always taught that the saber mounted to the saddle was as farb as the saber dance.

This is great love the pic.

[T.Kern]

Re: Saber on the Saddle...

attaching the sabre to the saddle is about as farb as it gets. The pic show what is most likely a sabre on a belt that has been placed over the pommel while the trooper is at leisure.
Todd Kern

[Mike N]

Re: Saber on the Saddle...

Sorry to disagree with what seems to be the predominant feeling that sabers attached to saddles is pure farbism, but I've found a lot of first person accounts and photographic evidence that leads me to believe the practice was far more commonplace than often thought. As another example, I'd offer a letter from a regular army (6th US) cavalryman in which he complains about how they we're required to wear their sabers on their belts but that the volunteer regiments were allowed to attach their sabers to the saddle.

I agree that as living historians we should present what was typical rather than leave the impression that an "abnormality" was the norm. With all due respect however I'm not at all convinced that this qualifies as an "abnormality".

My $.02 worth, your mileage may vary.

Regards,

Mike Nugent

[John E. Tobey]

To say that "sabers on saddles" was uncommon would be ignoring a very large amount of evidence to the contrary, at least as it applies to Federal cavalry -- I have no idea of what the guys in gray were doing. For starters, we have individual veterans making comments like the one posted by Mike N and the following by the historian of the 1st Mass:

“The men finally learned to fasten the saber, scabbard and all, firmly to the near side of the saddle, nearly parallel to the horse’s body, and when mounted throw the leg over it. It was then ready to be drawn when mounted, and was not in the way of the dismounted soldier, who had quite enough to do to take care of himself and his carbine in the thicket into which he had so frequently to march when skirmishing. On foot a saber is seldom of use, and is dreadfully in the way.” (Crowninshield, 294-295)

We have period commentators like Frederick Whittaker making even more general statements like the following:

“But the cavalryman is not fatigued. He has no knapsack to weigh him down. His saber was left on his saddle.” (Whittaker, 17)

The comment above can, of course, be interpreted to mean that the troopers removed their sabers only before fighting on foot. This is certainly the case in the following quotes:

“…now the bridles of horses Nos. 1, 2, and 3 were given to the No. 4 man to hold…with orders to ‘look out for my grain,’ ‘take care of my haversack,’ and a thousand and one instructions. The sabers were strapped to the saddles, and all superfluities taken from the person and put in the saddle-bags.” (Tobie 388)
“The advance guard had not gone far when the enemy’s infantry was found; the order to dismount, fasten our sabers to our saddles was at once given; the horses sent to the rear…” (18th PA, 104)

On the other hand, some cavalrymen fastened their sabers to their saddles specifically for riding:

“My horse was a very rough trotter…I was often compelled to hang my side-arms on the saddle instead of wearing them.” (Gause 82)

Sometimes it was done temporarily, with safety in mind:

[crossing a swollen river in February 1863] “I fastened my carbine and saber to my saddle so as to be as light as possible in case of an accident.” [another man was drowned because he wore his saber on his belt and it apparently caught under his horse] (Ide 90)

So much for anectodal evidence. We do, however, have official documents: AGO Circular 44 dated June 9, 1864, page 17:

“If the saber is worn, it should be fastened to the saddle under the stirrup leather.”

I've looked through a number of regimental and company order books at the NARA, and have found but one order to forbid the practice, and that only applied to parades, and was dated after the war was over (5th NY). I did find one set of instructions as to how it was supposed to be done -- this was posted earlier by Dave Myrick. Not to get off topic, but the army did have to put its foot down on one "on the saddle" practice:

“The enemy…found the 8th New York in the Gap with their horses unbridled and many of the men asleep having been out all day and all night. They charged the 8th with their usual yell, thus stampeding the horses… Most of the men had their carbines strapped to their saddles, and of course, these went away with the horses, which was the cause of a General Order’s being issued forbidding this practice.” (Ide 205)

The issue, I think, is not so much IF "sabers-on-saddles" became commonplace, but when. I can find few references to this practice before 1863.

Good discussion.

John Tobey

[Silas]

Re: Saber on the Saddle...

I notice the below passage yesterday and thought it worth adding to this discussion. This account was published two decades after the war and is seasoned with some of the Lost Cause myth, but it cannot be entirely discounted :

The infantry found out that bayonets were not of much use, and did not hesitate to throw them, with the scabbard, away.

The artillerymen, who started out with heavy sabres hanging to their belts, stuck them up in the mud as they marched, and left them for the ordnance officers to pick up and turn over to the cavalry.

The cavalrymen found sabres very tiresome when swung to the belt, and adopted the plan of fastening them to the saddle on the left side, with the hilt in front and in reach of the hand. Finally sabres got very scarce even among the
cavalrymen, who relied more and more on their short rifles.

p. 27 of Detailed Minutiae of Soldier Life in the Army of Northern Virginia 1861-1865- by Carlton McCarthy, Private Second Company Richmond Howitzers, Cuttshaw's Battalion Artillery, Second Corps, A. N. V.

I've read the book a couple times. His chapters about soldier practices in camping and marching are most helpful.

[moarkcav]

Re: Saber on the Saddle...

I am not sure where I found this image. I was looking at some pictures saved to my computer and found this one. I can't tell if the saber is attached to the saddle or just hung over with the Spencer.

Chris Talburt

[T.Kern]

Re: Saber on the Saddle...

I am not sure where I found this image. I was looking at some pictures saved to my computer and found this one. I can't tell if the saber is attached to the saddle or just hung over with the Spencer.

Chris Talburt

Nice pic, very unusual. Yes , I believe the carbine and sabre are just hanged on the saddle. more interesting is the grimsley saddle, fancy blanket, untypical bridle and bit. A snaffle with running martingale. very interesting.


Tobey, as usual you make a very well supported argument. In some cases it is clear that they put them on the saddle when dismounting, in others it appears they attached them there. There seems to be a difference between , the period of the war, and regulars or volunteers. Yet, I am still not convinced that a broad swath of troopers did it, at least not enough to say everyone was. Yes, it seems more prevalent later in the war but they are still issuing sabres with equal number of sword belts- this on both sides of the war. There are numerous accounts of them being worn on the belt. Here is one confederate account from the 18th Virginia cav after Gburg," ... we were supporting the batteries, we were all dismounted...they ran us from one battery to the other...we had our side arms and sabres and all the straps, etc., a cavalryman has to carry which made it awful hard on us boys..." it was a hot day for them.
Yet , I would say you have made a case that late in the war, for federals, it was not as uncommon as Jaguar pants.
I would still point out that a majority of images show them being worn on the belt, the images here all seem to be hanged on the saddle after dismounting. Furthermore unless representing a specific example that is documented, it is safer to wear it than go on the premiss that if others did they must have too. <strike>Lastly, look at any reenactors doing it...they are usually farbs, and who wants to associated with them.</strike>


Todd Kern

[paul9thky]

Re: Saber on the Saddle...

Nice pic, very unusual. Yes , I believe the carbine and sabre are just hanged on the saddle. more interesting is the grimsley saddle, fancy blanket, untypical bridle and bit. A snaffle with running martingale. very interesting.


Tobey, as usual you make a very well supported argument. In some cases it is clear that they put them on the saddle when dismounting, in others it appears they attached them there. There seems to be a difference between , the period of the war, and regulars or volunteers. Yet, I am still not convinced that a broad swath of troopers did it, at least not enough to say everyone was. Yes, it seems more prevalent later in the war but they are still issuing sabres with equal number of sword belts- this on both sides of the war. There are numerous accounts of them being worn on the belt. Here is one confederate account from the 18th Virginia cav after Gburg," ... we were supporting the batteries, we were all dismounted...they ran us from one battery to the other...we had our side arms and sabres and all the straps, etc., a cavalryman has to carry which made it awful hard on us boys..." it was a hot day for them.
Yet , I would say you have made a case that late in the war, for federals, it was not as uncommon as Jaguar pants.
I would still point out that a majority of images show them being worn on the belt, the images here all seem to be hanged on the saddle after dismounting. Furthermore unless representing a specific example that is documented, it is safer to wear it than go on the premiss that if others did they must have too. <strike>Lastly, look at any reenactors doing it...they are usually farbs, and who wants to associated with them.</strike>


Todd Kern

Hey Farbs have feelings too!

[CJSchumacher]

Re: Saber on the Saddle...

I am not sure where I found this image. I was looking at some pictures saved to my computer and found this one. I can't tell if the saber is attached to the saddle or just hung over with the Spencer.

Chris Talburt

I remember seeing this photo from long ago. Isn't this a post-war photo? A tribute to this old warhorse, much like the guys in the GAR got dressed up to celebrate-type of thing? He could have been "dressed up" as anyone would have like to have seen him look at this point.

[Andrew German]

Re: Saber on the Saddle...

And the horse has a martingale and a non-enlisted blanket. Plus, who can draw a sabre in that position?

Andrew German

[paul9thky]

Re: Saber on the Saddle...

And the horse has a martingale and a non-enlisted blanket. Plus, who can draw a sabre in that position?

Andrew German

Yes and your point is?

Running martingales are heavily documented to have been used.